Rutgers just admitted me without my applying Forum

[kwais]

This is Boomer Babble 101.

Um, which part? Listen, I totally feel for the people just starting out in this profession--I'm only thankful I didn't have to deal with the job market you guys have. I still think I have a reasonably good sense of the prospects for recent grads from that school, if only because I've worked with people who graduated in the past 2-3 years. I don't think students at Rutgers-Camden are significantly worse off than anyone else in this market.

all of your endorsements have a "it could be worse" tone. I think ultimately people are in agreement with you. It could definitely be worse, at about 100 or more other schools. But that is no reason to attend. These new developments at Rutgers, even if they are self-fulfilling prophesies, are reason to stay away. If they cannot fill their class with the type of students they usually have, and they are forced to drop their standards substantially, then this is seriously worrisome for the value of the degree.

[JCFindley]

This is Boomer Babble 101.

Um, which part? Listen, I totally feel for the people just starting out in this profession--I'm only thankful I didn't have to deal with the job market you guys have. I still think I have a reasonably good sense of the prospects for recent grads from that school, if only because I've worked with people who graduated in the past 2-3 years. I don't think students at Rutgers-Camden are significantly worse off than anyone else in this market.

all of your endorsements have a "it could be worse" tone. I think ultimately people are in agreement with you. It could definitely be worse, at about 100 or more other schools. But that is no reason to attend. These new developments at Rutgers, even if they are self-fulfilling prophesies, are reason to stay away. If they cannot fill their class with the type of students they usually have, and they are forced to drop their standards substantially, then this is seriously worrisome for the value of the degree.

They aren't exactly going after the bottom rung of applicants though as Wily is going to GW and was accepted at Fordham. They are not targeting people that have deposited at Cooly.

Still, admitting someone that didn't even apply is worrisome.

[kwais]

This is Boomer Babble 101.

Um, which part? Listen, I totally feel for the people just starting out in this profession--I'm only thankful I didn't have to deal with the job market you guys have. I still think I have a reasonably good sense of the prospects for recent grads from that school, if only because I've worked with people who graduated in the past 2-3 years. I don't think students at Rutgers-Camden are significantly worse off than anyone else in this market.

all of your endorsements have a "it could be worse" tone. I think ultimately people are in agreement with you. It could definitely be worse, at about 100 or more other schools. But that is no reason to attend. These new developments at Rutgers, even if they are self-fulfilling prophesies, are reason to stay away. If they cannot fill their class with the type of students they usually have, and they are forced to drop their standards substantially, then this is seriously worrisome for the value of the degree.

They aren't exactly going after the bottom rung of applicants though as Wily is going to GW and was accepted at Fordham. They are not targeting people that have deposited at Cooly.

Still, admitting someone that didn't even apply is worrisome.

agreed, but we'll see what the resort to if they continue to have 40% enrollment later into the summer

[tmgarvey]

Well, it certainly seriously sucks that the merger talk even was thrown out on the table. It was a bunch of politicians playing craps with people's futures (faculty included), if you ask me. I spent a couple of days doing nothing but writing letters to legislators, the Board of Governors, the Trustees, etc., and the students, faculty and alumni did a great job of finally killing it. It's hard to blame people for being leery when all that was going on, but what is the school supposed to do at this point? Leave half the seats in the class empty? Or maybe try to attract some students who hadn't considered it before?

My gut feeling is that the "hit" taken by the school will subside in another year or so. And hopefully the job market will improve, but that's speculation as well.

It's just a shame--it was all so unnecessary.

[sunynp]

This is Boomer Babble 101.

Um, which part? Listen, I totally feel for the people just starting out in this profession--I'm only thankful I didn't have to deal with the job market you guys have. I still think I have a reasonably good sense of the prospects for recent grads from that school, if only because I've worked with people who graduated in the past 2-3 years. I don't think students at Rutgers-Camden are significantly worse off than anyone else in this market.

And as far as what the tuition was when I attended, I don't remember the amount (insert another age joke here), but my first job paid $30k, and it took me over a decade to reach $60k. Things were cheaper then, but salaries way lower.

So I'm not painting a rosy picture, but you guys are applying to these schools regardless, aren't you? All I'm saying is that Rutgers is still a relative bargain for the quality of the education.

So I found the numbers for you from 1983 in this doc: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... cation.pdf

Basically tuition in 1983-1984 was about $2400 in-state and $3400 non-resident
Tuition and cost of attendance now is well over what you made your first year. Your first year your income was more than 10 times the yearly tuition you paid. For that to be true now, students would have to be paid over $227,000 for tuition cost alone and non-resident would have to earn $340,000.

Appendix A
Public Law School Resident Tuition and Fees
(1983-84 tuition figures have an asterisk)
SCHOOL 1983/1984 1999-2000 2004-2005 20 Yr. % Increase 5 Yr. % Increase
Rutgers State University - Camden $2,368* $11,302 $16,724 606.30% 47.97%

Rutgers State University - Newark $2,368* $11,226 $16,525 597.80% 47.20%
Appendix B
Non-resident tuition

Rutgers State University - Camden $3,348* $16,024 $23,755 609.50% 48.25%
Rutgers State University - Newark $3,348* $15,948 $23,556 603.60% 47.71%

current tuition

Rutgers State University - Camden

http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/tuition-and-financial-aid

Tuition for the academic year 2011-12 is $22,746 for in-state tuition and $34,010 for out-of-state (non-New Jersey) residents.

Part-time New Jersey resident tuition is $948 per credit; non-resident tuition is $1,417 per credit.

During 2011-12, student fees per semester are $1,348.25 for full-time students and $735.25 for part-time students.

Rutgers Newark
http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/students/tuition-fees

Tuition and Student Fees for 2011-2012

Full-Time Students Part-Time Students
Tuition $22,746/NJ Resident

$34,010/non-resident $948/credit (8 credits Fall/8 credits Spring = $15,168 NJ resident)

$1,437/credit (8 credits Fall/8 credits Spring = $22,992 non-resident)
Fees $2,661 $1,400
Books $1,150 $775
Health Insurance $750


Cost of Attendance for 2011-2012

Cost of Attendance (student budget) includes the projected amount of funding you’ll need to cover tuition, student fee and book expenses, as well as funds for housing, food, travel, and other miscellaneous items. Cost of Attendance is established by the university each academic year; it is based on typical expenses for this geographic region and is intended to cover expenses for the nine-month academic year (August – May). Students will be able to apply for funding up to this budgeted amount. The 2011-2012 law school budgets are listed below:

Full-Time Students Part-Time Students
NJ Residents $34,290 - Living with parents

$42,060 - On Campus

$47,570 - Off Campus $22,554 - Living with parents

$30,894 - On Campus

$35,824 - Off Campus
Non-Residents $44,190 - Living with parents

$52,220 - On Campus

$56,960 - Off Campus $29,811 - Living with parents

$38,151 - On Campus

$43,081 - Off Campus

If you want to know why this is "um", boomer babble, take a hard look at those tuition numbers and the current employment prospects. (using "um" as you did is rude and implies ignorance on the part of the other posters, I never use it, but I couldn't resist pointing it out to you)

You really don't know what you are talking about: "things were way cheaper then, but salaries were lower." One year of your salary could have easily paid your whole tuition for three years.

If you want to understand why millenials hate boomers, you might want to consider your assumptions in this thread.

[SchopenhauerFTW]

Pretty funny when you consider all the kids desperate to be admitted to such a school.

Not sure if I should laugh or cry at the thought of this.

[JCFindley]

Well, it certainly seriously sucks that the merger talk even was thrown out on the table. It was a bunch of politicians playing craps with people's futures (faculty included), if you ask me. I spent a couple of days doing nothing but writing letters to legislators, the Board of Governors, the Trustees, etc., and the students, faculty and alumni did a great job of finally killing it. It's hard to blame people for being leery when all that was going on, but what is the school supposed to do at this point? Leave half the seats in the class empty? Or maybe try to attract some students who hadn't considered it before?

My gut feeling is that the "hit" taken by the school will subside in another year or so. And hopefully the job market will improve, but that's speculation as well.

It's just a shame--it was all so unnecessary.

I hope you're right on both counts. RU-C might be better off long term accepting a smaller class size this cycle and keeping their numbers up so they don't fall much more in the rankings. Rankings are somewhat meaningless for the Rutgers system but it could have an effect on the quality of students they are able to attract and that could hurt job prospects and actually have an effect on the school. (Just my thoughts.) The great thing RU has going for it is its placement in NJ especially in state and local gov positions. Hopefully that will not be hurt long turn by the Rowen debacle.

[tmgarvey]

From the looks of the appendix cited, the tuition at most law schools has gone up a comparable percentage.

I agree that the cost of tuition is ridiculous, but that can pretty much be said for all of them.

Yet people are still fighting to get into the law schools. I'm not passing judgment on that fact, my point really was only that accepting an unsolicited invitation from Rutgers for the purpose of filling its class isn't a ridiculous notion--especially if it is accompanied by financial aid. My opinion, that's all.

The aging, demented boomer will gracefully bow out of the thread. Good luck to you all, seriously.

(Incidentally, the "um" wasn't intended to be rude--I honestly did not know why my opinion would be considered "boomer babble", which actually DOES sound rude, and rather dismissive. Your points are made, and you guys definitely have it tougher in the employment prospects department than my classmates and I did.)

[sunynp]

From the looks of the appendix cited, the tuition at most law schools has gone up a comparable percentage.

I agree that the cost of tuition is ridiculous, but that can pretty much be said for all of them.

Yet people are still fighting to get into the law schools. I'm not passing judgment on that fact, my point really was only that accepting an unsolicited invitation from Rutgers for the purpose of filling its class isn't a ridiculous notion--especially if it is accompanied by financial aid. My opinion, that's all.

The aging, demented boomer will gracefully bow out of the thread. Good luck to you all, seriously.

(Incidentally, the "um" wasn't intended to be rude--I honestly did not know why my opinion would be considered "boomer babble", which actually DOES sound rude, and rather dismissive. Your points are made, and you guys definitely have it tougher in the employment prospects department than my classmates and I did.)

That tuition is high at all schools is the point!! People can only afford to go to a few schools or in certain financial situations because they can't get jobs to pay for the massive loans they need to take for law school.

Why would a school like Rutgers charge this outrageous tuition? It is because other schools do and they can get away with it. Rutgers doesn't have the employment figures to justify that price.

Rutgers is particularly bad in that the job prospects a grad has that will enable him or her to repay that debt are very very limited. I wouldn't recommend anyone not on a full scholarship to go there. Advocating for Rutgers as a good deal when you even don't know how much the tuition costs is very misguided.

But you aren't alone, we fight this battle with the boomer generation all the time. Few boomers know what tuition and COA is at a school. A partner at a firm I worked with is an interviewer for Chicago and she had no idea what tuition total is. She had no idea that people are more than 6 figures in debt.

"boomer babble" is accurate, not rude. You don't know what you are talking about. And you mislead people because of your ignorance.

If you really wanted to help students you would push Rutgers to have greater transparency and to reduce tuition costs. You would push them to have better OCI and job placement. If alumni understand the issues facing students, they can be powerful allies for the benefit of the students and the schools.

[sharktankdean]

http://www.northjersey.com/news/1583370 ... l?page=all

"Only 107 first-year law students have put down deposits to start in the fall, down from 246 at this time last year, school officials said"
They are very, very desperate for incoming students.

This actually gives me hope that people are more sensible than I thought they were.

Agreed. My only worry is that the press about law school being a buyer's market might cause the declining trend to reverse.

*eagerly awaits the data on june's number of LSAT test takers*

It came by snail-mail, and I haven't gotten back to them. It says they waived both the application and the deposit fee, so they are acknowledging that I never applied.

Lol. I wonder how US news will rank the selectivity of a school whose number of offers exceeds its number of applicants.

Law school might be a buyer's market right now but the legal career/field is not. Laws of supply and demand may be bringing the market to equilibrium in the near future.

[sunynp]

Here is some juicy info on Rutgers Camden and their lack of transparency: You can attend even if you didn't take the LSAT.

On Friday, we reported on an aggressive and arguably misleading sales pitch from the people at Rutgers Law – Camden. The pitch, aimed towards students who had taken the GMAT, made this claim (among others): “As a direct result of the quality of legal education at Rutgers, of those employed nine months after graduation, 90% were employed in the legal field and 90% were in full time positions.” The school was clearly trying to make the economic case for going to law school, something you don’t see as much of in this difficult economy — at least from schools willing to tell the full story of their employment outcomes.

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/05/rutgers- ... criticism/

AND LST called for the Dean to resign:

LST Calls for Dean’s Resignation and ABA Investigation
Last week we became aware of an ongoing recruiting campaign by Rutgers – Camden School of Law that targets students who were not considering law school. As a part of this campaign, Camille Andrews, Associate Dean of Enrollment, sent students an email with bold statements about the employment outcomes achieved by the class of 2011. When compared to the school’s self-published employment data, we see Dean Andrew’s statements range from misleading to plainly false. Because the statements made in this email are demonstrably deceptive and are in clear violation of ABA Standard 509, Dean Andrews should resign immediately from her administrative appointment.
There are two important layers to this story. First, Dean Andrews made unfair statements about the employment outcomes of Camden graduates. These statements exaggerate the successful outcomes of Camden graduates and attempt to influence student behavior. The realities of Camden’s placement are far different from what Dean Andrews discloses. (More on this below.)
Second, Camden has extended a special offer for people who haven’t followed the normal application process and haven’t expressed an interest in law school or legal practice. (The email recipients had taken the GMAT, not the LSAT.) The Camden Special allows the students to avoid delay and enroll this August. By portraying Camden as some down-economy safe haven that leads to status and riches, Dean Andrews is attempting to enroll the exact students who ought not to attend law school: people who have not had time to carefully weigh the pros and cons of this significant investment.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... stigation/

[timbs4339]

From the looks of the appendix cited, the tuition at most law schools has gone up a comparable percentage.

I agree that the cost of tuition is ridiculous, but that can pretty much be said for all of them.

Yet people are still fighting to get into the law schools. I'm not passing judgment on that fact, my point really was only that accepting an unsolicited invitation from Rutgers for the purpose of filling its class isn't a ridiculous notion--especially if it is accompanied by financial aid. My opinion, that's all.

The aging, demented boomer will gracefully bow out of the thread. Good luck to you all, seriously.

(Incidentally, the "um" wasn't intended to be rude--I honestly did not know why my opinion would be considered "boomer babble", which actually DOES sound rude, and rather dismissive. Your points are made, and you guys definitely have it tougher in the employment prospects department than my classmates and I did.)

People are hardly fighting to get into Rutgers Camden right now. This may be mostly from the merger, but I'd bet that the negative press law schools have been getting has something to do with it. Other schools are having trouble filling their classes as well

Let's try a different way. Do you think the legal education you and your classmates received was a only 10% as good as what the students at RU-C are getting now?

[SchopenhauerFTW]

Law school might be a buyer's market right now but the legal career/field is not. Laws of supply and demand may be bringing the market to equilibrium in the near future.

How near? I must know. My future depends on it.

Goddammit everything comes down to timing.

[briviere]

I'm tempted to try and start an, "in @ Rutgers," meme, I'm conflicted because it might be detrimental to those already studying there. Sort of like kicking a guy while he's down after the Camden business.

[sunynp]

From the looks of the appendix cited, the tuition at most law schools has gone up a comparable percentage.

I agree that the cost of tuition is ridiculous, but that can pretty much be said for all of them.

Yet people are still fighting to get into the law schools. I'm not passing judgment on that fact, my point really was only that accepting an unsolicited invitation from Rutgers for the purpose of filling its class isn't a ridiculous notion--especially if it is accompanied by financial aid. My opinion, that's all.

The aging, demented boomer will gracefully bow out of the thread. Good luck to you all, seriously.

(Incidentally, the "um" wasn't intended to be rude--I honestly did not know why my opinion would be considered "boomer babble", which actually DOES sound rude, and rather dismissive. Your points are made, and you guys definitely have it tougher in the employment prospects department than my classmates and I did.)

People are hardly fighting to get into Rutgers Camden right now. This may be mostly from the merger, but I'd bet that the negative press law schools have been getting has something to do with it. Other schools are having trouble filling their classes as well

Let's try a different way. Do you think the legal education you and your classmates received was a only 10% as good as what the students at RU-C are getting now?

I'm sure Camden can fill the class if they are willing to drop down for LSAT and GPA scores. That is why they made the desperation call to the GMAT students. WIth a GMAT they obviously don't have to report an LSAT.

So that is what this school has done, ignored people who took the LSAT but got a lower score than they want, and tried to get business school people to attend.

[top30man]

From the looks of the appendix cited, the tuition at most law schools has gone up a comparable percentage.

I agree that the cost of tuition is ridiculous, but that can pretty much be said for all of them.

Yet people are still fighting to get into the law schools. I'm not passing judgment on that fact, my point really was only that accepting an unsolicited invitation from Rutgers for the purpose of filling its class isn't a ridiculous notion--especially if it is accompanied by financial aid. My opinion, that's all.

The aging, demented boomer will gracefully bow out of the thread. Good luck to you all, seriously.

(Incidentally, the "um" wasn't intended to be rude--I honestly did not know why my opinion would be considered "boomer babble", which actually DOES sound rude, and rather dismissive. Your points are made, and you guys definitely have it tougher in the employment prospects department than my classmates and I did.)

People are hardly fighting to get into Rutgers Camden right now. This may be mostly from the merger, but I'd bet that the negative press law schools have been getting has something to do with it. Other schools are having trouble filling their classes as well

Let's try a different way. Do you think the legal education you and your classmates received was a only 10% as good as what the students at RU-C are getting now?

I'm sure Camden can fill the class if they are willing to drop down for LSAT and GPA scores. That is why they made the desperation call to the GMAT students. WIth a GMAT they obviously don't have to report an LSAT.

So that is what this school has done, ignored people who took the LSAT but got a lower score than they want, and tried to get business school people to attend.

It just sucks that people will fall for it largely because of the myth of the versatility of a law degree.

[drmguy]

Rutgers took two hits for things out of their control. Last year, the police force reduction initially scared people away, and they admitted extra people to compensate. The people that were scared away apparently ended up coming back. Thus, the school admitted too many people.

Second, if a regional school loses its credibility in its region, then it will take an enormous hit. The merger talks worried people in the region. It didn't matter that the merger could possibly be beneficial to Rutgers.

I see two potential possibilities for the future of Rutgers. One, they buy their way out of this bad luck streak either this year or next year. Two, this second hit knocks them down to TTT, and it takes them longer to recover. In my opinion, I think the first possibility is much more likely.

[Applying_Late]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

[drmguy]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

Most of them are not federal.

[Applying_Late]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

Most of them are not federal.

I thought so, and beside it being slightly misleading, do you think that's even true? A lot if implications on their end....

[drmguy]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

Most of them are not federal.

I thought so, and beside it being slightly misleading, do you think that's even true? A lot if implications on their end....

I have no doubts that the clerkship figure is accurate.

All New Jeresey schools are big on clerkships.

[JCFindley]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

Most of them are not federal.

I thought so, and beside it being slightly misleading, do you think that's even true? A lot if implications on their end....

I can't remember where I saw it but when I was researching Rutgers N they did in fact place very well in state and local clerkships. It is not the prestigious clerkships that Yale grads are getting but if your goal is to go into Gov work in the state of NJ it does well.

I am not arguing that it is worth going at sticker but with the right $$$ Rutgers can be a wise investment of time and a little $ on the student's part. (Assumes ties and a desire to stay in or very close to NJ)

[DerekTokaz]

Can anyone verify the following for the wiki page of rutgers-camden?:

Approximately 40 percent of graduates enter clerkships upon graduation. Rutgers School of Law places the greatest number of graduates into clerkships second only to Yale Law School. The Mitchell H. Cohen Federal Courthouse (across the street from the law school at 4th Street and Cooper Street) is where a large number of students and graduates end up clerking. However, Rutgers graduates have clerked at various levels of local, state and federal government in recent years including for the United States Supreme Court.

34.7% in either Federal or State clerkships for class of 2011. --LinkRemoved--
30.0% in 2010
29.9% in 2009
35.8% in 2008

I'll edit the Wiki to make it not misleading.

[Wily]

any chance you could type a bit what the letter said? im struggling to see how the managed to explain that in the letter

Sorry, I was away after you posted this, but I typed up part of the letter and sent it to Prof. Campos. He put it up on his blog today:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... amden.html

The letter DOES say "Should you be accepted," so I suppose there would be a possibility that I wouldn't be admitted if I applied, but this is right after it says I'm already one of their "Academic Promise Scholars" and have my deposit and application fees waived. So basically, I think as long as I didn't commit some terrible C+F violations I'm as good as admitted, even though I never expressed an iota of interest in their school.

[DerekTokaz]

Top candidates with LSAT scores of 162 or higher and high academic credential of 3.50 and higher can compete for the Justicia Reperio Justicia (Justice finds Justice) Scholarship Awards. Selected recipients receive $12,000 per year.

http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/webapps/admis ... opup2.html

From your comments on JDU, you fell well below their minimum GPA, but yet they're offering you a scholarship 50% larger than what they say is their top award. The site must be outdated, surely they offer some people a full ride, right?