Every pre-law should see this. Forum

[top30man]

Does anybody knows if firms (I'm thinking about mid to top NYC firms in particular) would mind if you do your billable hours at completely random times (ie. nocturne schedule, or in on week-ends and holidays, but missing some week-days) as long as you do them? I guess my question is are you entirely free to choose your own schedule?

Not sure if serious. You are never free to choose your own schedule. You work when you are needed. At least in corporate, you can't just work on a weekend day and take a weekday off. Things have to be completed on an extremely tight schedule. So you can't think you will finish work on Saturday and just disappear on the preceding Thursday. (for that matter you can't even plan on dinner and the theater and know you will be able to get there until it is time to leave.) And, if you are out of the office, you have to be available and ready to come in as needed. It isn't like school where you can do work at the time that suits you the best.

The majority of firms in the secondary market im in are coming around to billing at home/remotely. I'm not sure if this is the same in NYC. At firm i work as staff at, you still are working until 8 or 9, you just get to go home at six. Some practice groups are more Leinant than others. However, as sunynp said, that's nothing like making your own schedule. Associates are expected to be in somewhere between 7 and 9 and stay until between 5 and 7 depending on what time you come in. Just an anecdote, but dont think you can bill all your hours whenever you'd like.

[msblaw89]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

[Tom Joad]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

I think it is illegal, but people do break the law all the time.

[msblaw89]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

I think it is illegal, but people do break the law all the time.

I think having to bill 2300+ hours should be illegal

[dingbat]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

If you get caught, you'll be in big shit.
More likely, if the overall bill is more than it should be, there's a good chance that the client will have a word with the partner and the partner will decrease the hours billed.
Which basically means you haven't gained anything

[rinkrat19]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

If you get caught, you'll be in big shit.
More likely, if the overall bill is more than it should be, there's a good chance that the client will have a word with the partner and the partner will decrease the hours billed.
Which basically means you haven't gained anything

Also, seems like you could get a rep for being inefficient. "He takes 2 hours to do a 90 minute task." If that happens regularly, you're not going to have partners fighting to have you work on their cases.

[sunynp]

Probably a stupid question...but given the large amount of billable hours... do associates ever inflate the amount of hours they should actually bill? So, if an associate really had 1.5 billable hours and decided to round up to 2?

I think it is illegal, but people do break the law all the time.

I think having to bill 2300+ hours should be illegal

You may want to think twice about biglaw at least in NYC.

[Qwerty12345]

In this mist of naive questions, I'll add a few more of my own. Is there any correlation between the number of hours you bill and your paycheck, beyond the fact that apparently top firms which I imagine pay more, have higher billable hours requirements than lower firms; or that you might -or might not- get a bonus for the extra-time? For example, if as a junior associate at a V25 law firm who had to bill 2100 hours and constantly volunteer or gun to get more work, eventually billing 2400+ hours, what is the likelihood that you will get more money solely based on the fact that you did 300+ more hours? Would this be true if you were a summer associate (I suppose the billing requirement would be small and the extra hours proportionally smaller too)? Would this be a good strategy to try to pay off law school loans as fast as possible?

[blurbz]

In this mist of naive questions, I'll add a few more of my own. Is there any correlation between the number of hours you bill and your paycheck, beyond the fact that apparently top firms which I imagine pay more, have higher billable hours requirements than lower firms; or that you might -or might not- get a bonus for the extra-time? For example, if as a junior associate at a V25 law firm who had to bill 2100 hours and constantly volunteer or gun to get more work, eventually billing 2400+ hours, what is the likelihood that you will get more money solely based on the fact that you did 300+ more hours? Would this be true if you were a summer associate (I suppose the billing requirement would be small and the extra hours proportionally smaller too)? Would this be a good strategy to try to pay off law school loans as fast as possible?

Lockstep.

Some firms have bonus tiers based on hours, though, so it might increase your bonus a little bit.

lol @ summer associate bonuses.

[dingbat]

In this mist of naive questions, I'll add a few more of my own. Is there any correlation between the number of hours you bill and your paycheck, beyond the fact that apparently top firms which I imagine pay more, have higher billable hours requirements than lower firms; or that you might -or might not- get a bonus for the extra-time? For example, if as a junior associate at a V25 law firm who had to bill 2100 hours and constantly volunteer or gun to get more work, eventually billing 2400+ hours, what is the likelihood that you will get more money solely based on the fact that you did 300+ more hours? Would this be true if you were a summer associate (I suppose the billing requirement would be small and the extra hours proportionally smaller too)? Would this be a good strategy to try to pay off law school loans as fast as possible?

My understanding (0L, so it doesn't count for much) is that you only get a bonus if you reach a certain number of billable hours and that if you consistently miss the target, you will be politely asked to leave.

[r6_philly]

In this mist of naive questions, I'll add a few more of my own. Is there any correlation between the number of hours you bill and your paycheck, beyond the fact that apparently top firms which I imagine pay more, have higher billable hours requirements than lower firms; or that you might -or might not- get a bonus for the extra-time? For example, if as a junior associate at a V25 law firm who had to bill 2100 hours and constantly volunteer or gun to get more work, eventually billing 2400+ hours, what is the likelihood that you will get more money solely based on the fact that you did 300+ more hours? Would this be true if you were a summer associate (I suppose the billing requirement would be small and the extra hours proportionally smaller too)? Would this be a good strategy to try to pay off law school loans as fast as possible?

My understanding (0L, so it doesn't count for much) is that you only get a bonus if you reach a certain number of billable hours and that if you consistently miss the target, you will be politely asked to leave.

Depends on the firm. But generally the more you bill, the more your bonus is comparative to other associates (at most firms while at others it's considered along with "merit"). Also more hours should correlate with career progression chances.

Summer associates' hours are mostly not billed to the client. You are being evaluated while they are paying you to recruit you. So no bonus. Bonus is getting a permanent offer.

[r6_philly]

The issue is that an hour of work does not equal a billable hour.
Sometimes you need to put in extra, non-billable, work for a task.

Non-billable work is going to inflate your hours. Putting in your time, reading/writing emails, talking with colleagues, meetings, trainings, etc.

But perhaps the worst part of having to bill a certain hours is sitting around 9-2 and not have any work to do/bill.

In an ultra simplified (and efficient) formula
9-10 administrative work
10-1 (3) billable work
1:30-7:00 (5.5) billable work
7-8 administrative work
-half an hour inefficiency/breaks
=
8 hours billable (10.5 worked)

This is assuming you always have enough time to work and will never have to wait for more work. For every six minutes you have nothing to do, add six minutes to the departure time. Most likely you will have to add 1-2 hours of slack to the above schedule to make same 8 hours, so that's why many people work from home (maybe do the administrative stuff from home).

That's only making 2000 hours with a two week vacation. Now imagine billing 2500-2700 which is known to be done by some first years at NYC firms.

[fatduck]

this thread is hilarious

[TTTLS]

Corporate law = life of misery.

Edit: I meant if you're gunning for partner of course.

[Lawl Shcool]

Billing 2000 hours is a monster work schedule, but ultimately worth it as a 25 year old with debt IMO. Good pay + good experience > eating a shit sandwich for a few years hours-wise.

[2014]

Obviously the hours can be rough, especially if you are striving for more than minimum, but the idea that a BigLawl associate only shows up to work 47 weeks a year is laughable.