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Looking very diligently through LSN at scholarship awards to those with my numbers, I am really beginning to think that Canada might be the best option for both job prospects and keeping debt down. Is this an insane notion? Here is some relevant info in my thought process:

*170/3.62
*Toronto is the same distance from home as my closest potential BigLaw market (Chicago)
*I'd love to be within shouting distance of family and UG friends
*There are simply no good in-state options with low tuition (there is a public t14 where I attend UG, the LS may as well be private though)
*If I'm going to be far from home, Vancouver would be a top five choice, and UBC offers a dual degree with Hawai'i to practice in either the US or Canada

I understand that the immigration process is not entirely too difficult, and that it would be even easier with WE (i.e.: you'll get resident tuition and since you're already a "skilled worker", the process is expedited). I am definitely applying to the T14 (at least from MVP down) and the next 4 (UCS, UCLA, TX, and Vandy). Outside of that, I am looking to throw out 5-7 more apps. Someone talk me into/out of applying to UBC, Toronto, and Osgoode.

Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.

thelawyler wrote:Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.

Canada is pretty awesome. Vancouver and Toronto are right up there with Chicago or San Fran.

One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

rayiner wrote:

thelawyler wrote:Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.

Canada is pretty awesome. Vancouver and Toronto are right up there with Chicago or San Fran.

One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

I actually think Canada is awesome. I just wanted to make the snide remark about Canada like a typical American.

I would remove UBC unless you are fully confident that you will be paying resident tuition. Vancouver salaries are low and COL is very high. I think Toronto is a good choice. I would add Alberta, given Calgary's booming economy. UofA also has a dual JD program with Colorado.

rayiner wrote:

thelawyler wrote:Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.

Canada is pretty awesome. Vancouver and Toronto are right up there with Chicago or San Fran.

One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

If you're a lawyer making good money why does the dysfunction of either of those things matter? Money buys a fix. Also, Canada is cold and full of Canadians. Also, French Canadians. I rest my case.

The reason you would want to choose Canada is because almost all of Canada's attorneys end up employed. School prestige or a lack of it is practically no barrier at all. Sure biglaw in Toronto doesn't pay American market salary, but who cares? More livable hours and better chances of employment? Take it. It's not any colder than Chicago or NYC.

Tanicius wrote:The reason you would want to choose Canada is because almost all of Canada's attorneys end up employed. School prestige or a lack of it is practically no barrier at all. Sure biglaw in Toronto doesn't pay American market salary, but who cares? More livable hours and better chances of employment? Take it. It's not any colder than Chicago or NYC.

Not sure if serious . . .

lawyerwannabe wrote:

Tanicius wrote:The reason you would want to choose Canada is because almost all of Canada's attorneys end up employed. School prestige or a lack of it is practically no barrier at all. Sure biglaw in Toronto doesn't pay American market salary, but who cares? More livable hours and better chances of employment? Take it. It's not any colder than Chicago or NYC.

Not sure if serious . . .

Winter is winter. Toronto's probably a worse time than NYC, but it's comparable to Chicago - it's a cold place on a lake with exposure to lots of wind and snow. If you can take it in the States you can take it in Toronto.

Montreal is beautiful though they do have nasal french

It's tough to say what is your best option when you have no options currently.

Apply to the lower T-14, some regional law schools as well as to Osgoode Hall, Toronto & UBC to determine your options, then repost.

As you probably know, Canadian law school tuition is far less than US law school tuition although you need to check international student tuition rates at Canadian law schools. If I recall correctly, international tuition at Toronto equals that of the top American law schools. Some of the joint US/Canadian law degree programs offer lower tuition to international or, at least, to US students. Colorado, Hawaii, Michigan State & Houston all have joint degree programs worthy of investigation.

Jaeger wrote:

rayiner wrote:

thelawyler wrote:Before we go any further into the analysis:

It's fucking Canada.

Canada is pretty awesome. Vancouver and Toronto are right up there with Chicago or San Fran.

One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

If you're a lawyer making good money why does the dysfunction of either of those things matter? Money buys a fix. Also, Canada is cold and full of Canadians. Also, French Canadians. I rest my case.

Because even if you lose your job, your kid will still be there and it will still need medical care. Because even on $160k saving for college is not easy. And you have to do it so your kid can go to a top college so he doesn't end up unemployed without health insurance.

rayiner wrote: One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

But this person isn't an international free agent looking for a place to settle like someone coming over from India. The OP is an American considering leaving for Canada. Different situation.

But yes, vouchers and HSAs FTW.

yes


though I have done no research on the canadian legal market

Tiago Splitter wrote:

rayiner wrote: One guy in our class here at NU, tremendously smart fellow, went running back to U of Toronto because he didn't want to practice here in the US. Just one person, sure, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point where the utter dysfunction of our educational and health care systems is making the US an unattractive place for highly educated immigrants to migrate to.

But this person isn't an international free agent looking for a place to settle like someone coming over from India. The OP is an American considering leaving for Canada. Different situation.

But yes, vouchers and HSAs FTW.

Toronto is closer to DC or NYC than is Chicago.

Also, LOL @ HSA's.

rayiner wrote:Toronto is closer to DC or NYC than is Chicago.

Also, LOL @ HSA's.

LOL @ throwing even more money at the problem.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

rayiner wrote:Toronto is closer to DC or NYC than is Chicago.

Also, LOL @ HSA's.

LOL @ throwing even more money at the problem.

LOL @ the US spending 15% of GDP on health care versus 10% in Canada. LOL @ suppressing innovation by shackling potential entrepreneurs to companies for the healthcare benefits. LOL @ market failure.

rayiner wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:

rayiner wrote:Toronto is closer to DC or NYC than is Chicago.

Also, LOL @ HSA's.

LOL @ throwing even more money at the problem.

LOL @ the US spending 15% of GDP on health care versus 10% in Canada. LOL @ suppressing innovation by shackling potential entrepreneurs to companies for the healthcare benefits. LOL @ market failure.

LOL @ the AMA monopoly. LOL @ the lack of competition in healthcare. So much loling.

Thank you everyone for the input! I'm interested to look into the other US/Canadian dual degrees you've mentioned, although I'm kind of doubtful that they'd lead to a huge degree of employ-ability in Canada if I were to attend the American school offering the degree. I do like the idea of being able to come back to the states with a degree worst case scenario though, so definitely something to think about.

Also, I am not opposed to the cold at all, I've lived north of the 45th parallel before, anything above that is just a longer winter, because you can't get much worse than below 0 F for prolonged periods of time!

Lastly, does anyone know how long it takes to apply to be a permanent resident in Canada? I'm tempted to wait another cycle (I'm a rising senior in UG as of now) to raise GPA/apply as a permanent resident/improve options. Does this seem like a logical idea, or am I missing something? I'm fairly positive I'd be able to get good WE in the year or two off.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:

rayiner wrote:Toronto is closer to DC or NYC than is Chicago.

Also, LOL @ HSA's.

LOL @ throwing even more money at the problem.

LOL @ the US spending 15% of GDP on health care versus 10% in Canada. LOL @ suppressing innovation by shackling potential entrepreneurs to companies for the healthcare benefits. LOL @ market failure.

LOL @ the AMA monopoly. LOL @ the lack of competition in healthcare. So much loling.

LOL @ competition being the magic fucking bullet for everything. LOL @ ignoring solutions that clearly work in favor of unproven magic market fairy theories.

rayiner wrote: LOL @ competition being the magic fucking bullet for everything. LOL @ ignoring solutions that clearly work in favor of unproven magic market fairy theories.

All LOLing aside, I'm legitimately curious to hear about this solution that "clearly works." I'm open to any ideas but cost control has to be part of the solution.

dsn32 wrote:I'm tempted to wait another cycle (I'm a rising senior in UG as of now) to raise GPA/apply as a permanent resident/improve options. Does this seem like a logical idea, or am I missing something? I'm fairly positive I'd be able to get good WE in the year or two off.

This sounds like a great idea. Take a year or two to figure things out, save some money and seriously evaluate the Canadian option.

OP: You don't seem to understand the dual degree program offerings. One who successfully completes four years of law school--two at a US law school & two years at a Canadian law school--receives two different law degrees from two different law schools, one American & one Canadian. Employability is best where you finishyour schooling. Typically, Americans start in the US & finish in Canada (which is why many Canadians try to matriculate at US law schools & finish in Canada).

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: You don't seem to understand the dual degree program offerings. One who successfully completes four years of law school--two at a US law school & two years at a Canadian law school--receives two different law degrees from two different law schools, one American & one Canadian. Employability is best where you finishyour schooling. Typically, Americans start in the US & finish in Canada (which is why many Canadians try to matriculate at US law schools & finish in Canada).

Yeah I started to notice this as I read through some of the programs suggested. Still I like the idea. Does anyone know if the NYU/Osgoode program still exists or ever materialized? I found a few articles about it but couldn't find evidence of any such program on either schools site.

The NYU-Osgoode Hall program may have ended last year.

CanadianWolf wrote:The NYU-Osgoode Hall program may have ended last year.

Huge bummer. I appreciate the help CanadianWolf!