Politics of Applying? Forum

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:20 am

I'm preparing my applications for the coming cycle, and need advice in finalizing my list of schools.

First, is there any danger in applying to Cornell as your top choice (and telling them they're your top choice), but also applying to NYU? Or any other school ranked higher than Cornell for that matter? Will this frame an applicant as disingenuous, and hurt their application??

Second, is it in poor taste to apply to Berkeley as well as other schools in the California system, if one is truly interested in attending Berkeley? Does the admissions committee peg you as being less serious? Ding you out of YP because they simply think you probably wouldn't attend if admitted?

Lastly, is it a bad idea to ED to UPenn or UMich if you tell another school they're your top choice, but don't ED because they don't have the option available?

I ask these (bizarre?) questions because talk of YP has me very paranoid. It is my understanding that schools know where you've applied, and, based on your numbers, can make reasonable guesses of where you will get in, and where you may get scholarship money.

Thanks for your help!

JoeMo · Post by **JoeMo** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:22 am

No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:29 am

JoeMo wrote:No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.

Whewww. Thank you, thank you.

TIKITEMBO · Post by **TIKITEMBO** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:41 am

llachans · Post by **llachans** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:44 am

TIKITEMBO wrote:
Hang on though, I have heard of people saying you shouldn't tell more than one school it's your top choice. It might come back to haunt you for C&F issues. Though, I'm not sure exactly how serious that is. There are some threads on it in these forums.

I've also heard that. I think I agree with it ethically too. If you're not 100% sure on going there, you can make it clear that they're a top choice without saying they're your first choice.

Davidbentley · Post by **Davidbentley** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:45 am

iMisto wrote:I'm preparing my applications for the coming cycle, and need advice in finalizing my list of schools.

First, is there any danger in applying to Cornell as your top choice (and telling them they're your top choice), but also applying to NYU? Or any other school ranked higher than Cornell for that matter? Will this frame an applicant as disingenuous, and hurt their application?? First, they are not stupid. Personally, I wouldn't tell a school that wasn't my top choice that they were my top choice, but that is simply because it is just as easy to come up with compelling reasons to attend a school that aren't quite as vapid as, "if admitted, I will surely attend." Cornell can look at your stats, and its stats, and see that you will likely have better options or worse options. If you have legit reasons to go to Cornell, perhaps an interest in deciduous trees or hirsute hippies, then tell them, but they are unlikely to be moved one way or the other by "you're my #1 choice."

Second, is it in poor taste to apply to Berkeley as well as other schools in the California system, if one is truly interested in attending Berkeley? Does the admissions committee peg you as being less serious? Ding you out of YP because they simply think you probably wouldn't attend if admitted? No. Remember, they are not offering you guaranteed admission. Besides, Berkeley is not going to YP against another UC school. Those other UC schools are significantly less stellar than Cal.

Lastly, is it a bad idea to ED to UPenn or UMich if you tell another school they're your top choice, but don't ED because they don't have the option available? It's a bad idea to ED to a school if you aren't willing to go there above all others. If your top choice doesn't have ED, I'm Assuming one of HYS, and you have a realistic shot at admission there, then don't ED elsewhere.

JoeMo · Post by **JoeMo** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:51 am

TIKITEMBO wrote:
iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.
Whewww. Thank you, thank you.

Hang on though, I have heard of people saying you shouldn't tell more than one school it's your top choice. It might come back to haunt you for C&F issues. Though, I'm not sure exactly how serious that is. There are some threads on it in these forums.

2 things: C&F only looks at the app of the school you ultimately attended (from what I have been told). And he didn't say he was telling more than one they were his top choice. Cornell is his top choice but they don't have ED so he wants to ED elsewhere to hedge his bets. (sorry if it's a her)

JCFindley · Post by **JCFindley** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:57 am

TIKITEMBO wrote:
iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.
Whewww. Thank you, thank you.

Hang on though, I have heard of people saying you shouldn't tell more than one school it's your top choice. It might come back to haunt you for C&F issues. Though, I'm not sure exactly how serious that is. There are some threads on it in these forums.

School X is and remains "a" top choice for me.

Problem solved.

(That is how I worded it BTW.)

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:55 am

JoeMo wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.
Whewww. Thank you, thank you.

Hang on though, I have heard of people saying you shouldn't tell more than one school it's your top choice. It might come back to haunt you for C&F issues. Though, I'm not sure exactly how serious that is. There are some threads on it in these forums.
2 things: C&F only looks at the app of the school you ultimately attended (from what I have been told). And he didn't say he was telling more than one they were his top choice. Cornell is his top choice but they don't have ED so he wants to ED elsewhere to hedge his bets. (sorry if it's a her)

This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.

JoeMo · Post by **JoeMo** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am

iMisto wrote: This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.

Yeah, you're totally fine. Just don't write "Michigan is my top choice" write "Michigan is a top choice" as JC suggested and you're good. I applied ED to a certain school that shall remain nameless even though they weren't my top choice because I thought I had good chances there. So similar situation and I don't see how anyone could question your ethical compass if you're taking advantage of a situation (ED) that Cornell doesn't offer.

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:49 am

JoeMo wrote:
iMisto wrote: This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.
Yeah, you're totally fine. Just don't write "Michigan is my top choice" write "Michigan is a top choice" as JC suggested and you're good. I applied ED to a certain school that shall remain nameless even though they weren't my top choice because I thought I had good chances there. So similar situation and I don't see how anyone could question your ethical compass if you're taking advantage of a situation (ED) that Cornell doesn't offer.

Alright. I'll stop stressing about it then.

On a side note, what is the furthest reach you can reasonably expect with an ED? I've seen some crazy leaps on LSN.

top30man · Post by **top30man** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:53 am

iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
iMisto wrote: This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.
Yeah, you're totally fine. Just don't write "Michigan is my top choice" write "Michigan is a top choice" as JC suggested and you're good. I applied ED to a certain school that shall remain nameless even though they weren't my top choice because I thought I had good chances there. So similar situation and I don't see how anyone could question your ethical compass if you're taking advantage of a situation (ED) that Cornell doesn't offer.
Alright. I'll stop stressing about it then.

On a side note, what is the furthest reach you can reasonably expect with an ED? I've seen some crazy leaps on LSN.

UVA is known to have one of the biggest Ed boosts. They essentially take anyone who is at one of their medians as long as you are above floors. If you are significantly above one median, you can be significantly below one. For example, a 163/3.95 will almost certainly get it. So will a 170/3.4. Other schools offer decent boosts as well, but that is likely the best example, at least that I can think of.

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:12 pm

top30man wrote:
iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
iMisto wrote: This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.
Yeah, you're totally fine. Just don't write "Michigan is my top choice" write "Michigan is a top choice" as JC suggested and you're good. I applied ED to a certain school that shall remain nameless even though they weren't my top choice because I thought I had good chances there. So similar situation and I don't see how anyone could question your ethical compass if you're taking advantage of a situation (ED) that Cornell doesn't offer.
Alright. I'll stop stressing about it then.

On a side note, what is the furthest reach you can reasonably expect with an ED? I've seen some crazy leaps on LSN.
UVA is known to have one of the biggest Ed boosts. They essentially take anyone who is at one of their medians as long as you are above floors. If you are significantly above one median, you can be significantly below one. For example, a 163/3.95 will almost certainly get it. So will a 170/3.4. Other schools offer decent boosts as well, but that is likely the best example, at least that I can think of.

Hmm. I really wish I was attracted to UVA. I'm apprehensive about attending school in the south, due largely to my LGBT status.

BlueDiamond · Post by **BlueDiamond** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:24 pm

I told every school they were my top school.. then if they asked why I said that and didnt deposit I said that they USED TO BE my top school then another school gave me more money.. however, I still liked their school and money could change my mind

woeisme · Post by **woeisme** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:33 pm

iMisto wrote:I'm preparing my applications for the coming cycle, and need advice in finalizing my list of schools.

First, is there any danger in applying to Cornell as your top choice (and telling them they're your top choice), but also applying to NYU? Or any other school ranked higher than Cornell for that matter? Will this frame an applicant as disingenuous, and hurt their application??

So you're asking if you're allowed to apply to schools ranked higher than a school if said school, though not the highest ranked, is ultimately your disclosed first choice? I don't understand this question. I mean, if you tell Cornell it's your first choice and then you get into NYU and choose to attend there, sure you're allowed to do that. Not sure why you'd bother telling Cornell it's your first choice though.

Basically, don't lie to schools about them being your first choice. But so long as you're honest in what you say, you can tell schools whatever you want and can apply to as many as you want.

And you needn't worry about seeming disingenuous ... many people turn down higher ranked schools for lower ranked ones. Personal circumstances and preferences are always at play.

iMisto wrote:Second, is it in poor taste to apply to Berkeley as well as other schools in the California system, if one is truly interested in attending Berkeley? Does the admissions committee peg you as being less serious? Ding you out of YP because they simply think you probably wouldn't attend if admitted?

I don't really understand what you're asking, but I think my first response would address this. Apply to wherever you want. If a school YPs you, that's something that's difficult for you to control. And if that happens, you can try and address the situation through LOCIs.

iMisto wrote:Lastly, is it a bad idea to ED to UPenn or UMich if you tell another school they're your top choice, but don't ED because they don't have the option available?

Probably. I mean, ED is binding ... so if you get into UPenn or UMich, but would ultimately rather attend another school (that doesn't offer ED), ... then you've basically deprived yourself the opportunity to attend the school you'd rather attend. This is a personal decision obviously. People look at this gamble differently.

Like for me, I applied ED to my second choice school rather than my first choice because I assumed I'd be a near auto-reject for my first choice and thus didn't want to waste my ED on it.

woeisme · Post by **woeisme** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:35 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:I told every school they were my top school.. then if they asked why I said that and didnt deposit I said that they USED TO BE my top school then another school gave me more money.. however, I still liked their school and money could change my mind

I mean... yeah, this isn't illegal, but that's kind of grimy... I certainly see the benefit of doing this, but you're effectively lying here. I think it'd be better to just express a firm interest without explicitly saying "you're my first choice." I doubt you'll have C&F issues with this, but I'd advise against this tactic of telling multiple schools the same thing...

iMisto wrote:This. It is NOT my intention to lie. Cornell is truly my first choice school. However, since they don't offer ED, I thought I'd try for a reach school, Columbia/UPenn/Mich. possibly. I'm just wondering if that has any ethical implications. If Cornell offered ED, I'd do it without any concerns... but they don't.

I always wondered why Cornell didn't do ED. It seems like they ought to since all their peers do. And with NU's new scholarship-guaranteed ED program, it seems like Cornell is at even more of a disadvantage by not offering some sort of binding admission program. Ask them why they don't offer it and let me know

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:34 am

Maybe I'll just tell Cornell I'm attending, regardless of what decision they make. Cuff myself to a desk or something?

BlueDiamond · Post by **BlueDiamond** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:36 pm

woeisme wrote:
BlueDiamond wrote:I told every school they were my top school.. then if they asked why I said that and didnt deposit I said that they USED TO BE my top school then another school gave me more money.. however, I still liked their school and money could change my mind
I mean... yeah, this isn't illegal, but that's kind of grimy... I certainly see the benefit of doing this, but you're effectively lying here. I think it'd be better to just express a firm interest without explicitly saying "you're my first choice." I doubt you'll have C&F issues with this, but I'd advise against this tactic of telling multiple schools the same thing...

I don't think it is grimy at all. These schools see students as revenue and see our numbers as a way to increase/maintain their US News rankings to keep that revenue stream coming in. Our numbers are the main thing keeping their rankings up and there is no reason at all not to use that against them to get more money. There are no character and fitness issues with it at all. I know this is getting all lawyery and douchey but ask any lawyer or law professor and they will say you should "do anything within the law to advocate for a client and win the case".. well when applying to schools that are self-interested you have to advocate for yourself and do everything you can within the rules

woeisme · Post by **woeisme** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:21 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:
I don't think it is grimy at all. These schools see students as revenue and see our numbers as a way to increase/maintain their US News rankings to keep that revenue stream coming in. Our numbers are the main thing keeping their rankings up and there is no reason at all not to use that against them to get more money. There are no character and fitness issues with it at all. I know this is getting all lawyery and douchey but ask any lawyer or law professor and they will say you should "do anything within the law to advocate for a client and win the case".. well when applying to schools that are self-interested you have to advocate for yourself and do everything you can within the rules

That's a poor analogy because what you're doing is lying to the law schools. A lawyer would not lie to the court to advocate for a client and win the case. There are many ways to advocate for yourself to a law school without lying to them. For example, rather than saying "you are my first choice school" or "I will attend if admitted," you could say "I am highly interested in your school for reasons X, Y, and Z, and would be thrilled to attend if accepted."

I agree that it's a virtual certainty that lying to law schools will not result in C&F problems. But that doesn't make it condonable.

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:35 pm

I will not be lying to any schools. That was never my intention. I was merely concerned with EDing to a school if I told another they were my first choice.

Now, I just need help deciding which school to ED to. I understand LGBT doesn't count as URM, but are there schools, to anybody's knowledge, that have a soft spot for them? Or for people that come from poor socioeconomic conditions? I've heard stories about Berkeley, but what about a possible ED option?

woeisme · Post by **woeisme** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:37 pm

iMisto wrote:I will not be lying to any schools. That was never my intention. I was merely concerned with EDing to a school if I told another they were my first choice.

Now, I just need help deciding which school to ED to. I understand LGBT doesn't count as URM, but are there schools, to anybody's knowledge, that have a soft spot for them? Or for people that come from poor socioeconomic conditions? I've heard stories about Berkeley, but what about a possible ED option?

Oh i know you werent going to lie... that comment wasnt directed to you.

Depending on your numbers and financial situation, it might not be advisable to ED. I really don't know which schools, if any, give a substantial boost for LGBT status. I doubt others here have this info. If your numbers are competitive for Cornell and it's your top choice, don't ED elsewhere. If Cornell is more of an aspiration/reach, ED to your highest choice where your numbers line up (e.g., numbers at or above 25th).

Wanna share your numbers?

Excellent117 · Post by **Excellent117** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:57 pm

JCFindley wrote:
TIKITEMBO wrote:
iMisto wrote:
JoeMo wrote:No, no, no and no. The schools all know you'll be applying to more than one school and if you didn't they'd probably think you were stupid for putting all your eggs in one basket.
Whewww. Thank you, thank you.

Hang on though, I have heard of people saying you shouldn't tell more than one school it's your top choice. It might come back to haunt you for C&F issues. Though, I'm not sure exactly how serious that is. There are some threads on it in these forums.
School X is and remains "a" top choice for me.

Problem solved.

(That is how I worded it BTW.)

The problem with this is that there is a big difference between "School X remains a top choice for me" and "School X is my top choice." A bunch of ex-lawyers reading a LOCI will almost certainly catch the difference, regardless of how subtle you try to make it.

iMisto · Post by **iMisto** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:06 am

PMed Woeisme

bp shinners · Post by **bp shinners** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:22 pm

Excellent117 wrote:The problem with this is that there is a big difference between "School X remains a top choice for me" and "School X is my top choice." A bunch of ex-lawyers reading a LOCI will almost certainly catch the difference, regardless of how subtle you try to make it.

And they'll also remember what a big deal it was that you said they were your top choice and possibly wonder why you don't jump to go there when they admit you.

Don't lie in your application, even over something as 'stupid' as which school is your top choice. Yes, a school will know the difference between 'a' top choice and 'the' top choice. However, if you say that every school is your top choice, you risk getting called out on it. The marginal benefit you get from declaring that a certain school is your top choice is not worth the ramifications of what could happen in the unlikely event that they call you out on it.

swoozie · Post by **swoozie** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:14 pm

The schools I bothered writing "Why X" essays for, I told them they were "one of my top choices". The ones I didn't write essays for, I obviously didn't tell them anything. And then my actual #1, I said was "my top choice", and I only said exactly that once. These were all based on other things being equal though, which is exactly what I told my friends. I have to admit some of my preferences shifted after ASWs/aid information. I would hope that the schools understand that!

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