MUST READ post for anyone choosing against U of Chicago Forum

[Rorassy]

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... stats.html

Make sure you read the comments too.

Edit: TLS censors that site! So you'll have to type this address into your browser and remove the spaces

http://BANNED FOR EVADING WORD FILTER, MAKING ME EDIT THIS MANUALLY

[Rorassy]

Why doesn't the link work?

Any way it's today's post, "The startling gap in Michigan's salary stats" at in side th e law sch oolsca m dot blogspot dot com (that's an awful statement about TLS's credibility that this site is censored here!)

It shows how not all T10 or even T6 schools are equivalent in job placement. Some schools, like Chicago, place far better.

[duckmoney]

Link don't work brah

[Rorassy]

It's because TLS won't let you post links to that site (which again is a shocking statement about TLS's credibility and objectivity). But any way my post above tells you how to read it.

Basically the post talks about how Michigan has salary data for only 56% of its class (meaning 44% of Michigan's graduates were so pissed off with their job that they did not fill out the school's career placement survey). At Chicago they have 94% salary reporting. 94% versus 56%.

At Michigan only about 1/3 got biglaw. At Chicago over half did.

At Michigan far less than everyone got a desirable job. At Chicago essentially everyone got such a job.

To quote a comment there:

I'm speculating, but I think there is an uber-tier of law schools where more or less everyone gets a good job: Yale, Chicago, Stanford.

The qualities that create this tier are (a) small class sizes of about 200 students, (b) reputation and (c) very high faculty to student ratios.

Schools like Harvard, NYU or Columbia aren't in this category.

[Paul Campos]

[quote="Rorassy"]

At Michigan far less than everyone got a desirable job. At Chicago essentially everyone got such a job.

That seems like an exaggeration to me. If you compare Chicago's 2010 to their 2009 and 2008 stats you'll notice that the proportion of people going to firms has dropped from 80% to 70%, and that the number of people going to firms of less than 100 lawyers has more than doubled. 10% of Chicago's 2010 class went to small firms, including seven people who went to firms of 2-10 people (in each of the previous two classes one person did). Then you have eight people in "JD preferred" positions (who knows what those jobs are). While 53% of the class got Big Law and another 11% got federal clerkships, there's a lot of ambiguity about what's going on with the other 36% of the class, especially since Chicago doesn't reveal whether they're employing any of their own grads in law school funded jobs (I would be very surprised if they weren't).

[CanadianWolf]

In my view, Chicago, Stanford & Yale should be grouped together since they are all T-6 law schools similiar in size (about 600 students total per school). The small size & stellar reputations & rankings probably makes placement easier than for large law schools like NYU, Columbia & Harvard. However, I am not suggesting that these three large law schools don't place as well, just that it may be harder. Once out of the T-6, it seems likely that a small T-6 law school would place better than a larger non-T-6; afterall, that's primarily why the T-6 is separated from the rest of the T-14. In short, it is reasonable to attend Chicago over Michigan if your primary concern is post law school employment.

[soitgoes9]

Come one come all--the streets of Hyde Park are paved with gold!

[Rorassy]

In my view, Chicago, Stanford & Yale should be grouped together since they are all T-6 law schools similiar in size (about 600 students total per school). The small size & stellar reputations & rankings probably makes placement easier than for large law schools like NYU, Columbia & Harvard. However, I am not suggesting that these three large law schools don't place as well, just that it may be harder. Once out of the T-6, it seems likely that a small T-6 law school would place better than a larger non-T-6; afterall, that's primarily why the T-6 is separated from the rest of the T-14.

I agree. Also look at their faculty-student ratios. These three are in a league of their own.

[CanadianWolf]

@PaulCampos: Wouldn't the stats in your last post be more meaningful if compared to Michigan's employment statistics for the same period ? Comparing Chicago 2010 to Chicago 2009 & Chicago 2008 misses the point of this thread, in my opinion.

[Paul Campos]

Chicago's placement stats are clearly stronger than Michigan's. I'm just quibbling with the idea that "nearly everyone" out of the U of C 2010 class got what they considered a good job (or would have considered a good job when they enrolled). I think the numbers they provide suggest that around 20% to 25% of the class didn't, and that this figure is maybe double what it was for the previous two classes.

[ahduth]

I'm confused, is the argument here that Chicago places better than Michigan? That's news?

[Yeshia90]

I'll give Chicago one thing, they are easily the #1 law school in terms of having the most ardent and enthusiastic trolls on TLS.

[snehpets]

For such a small school, chicago has an overwhelming number of vocal fans on this site.

[Bildungsroman]

I'm confused, is the argument here that Chicago places better than Michigan? That's news?

There are some people who desperately argue that placement differences among the T14 outside of HYS are too similar to be very significant. Those people are incorrect.

[Nelson]

It's really tough to handicap the close race for "Most Egregious Troll of the Week" between the Rorassy obvious alt and the fake Real Paul Campos account. I'm glad they're finally facing off in the same thread.

Edited for real Paul Campos.

[Yeshia90]

I'm confused, is the argument here that Chicago places better than Michigan? That's news?

There are some people who desperately argue that placement differences among the T14 outside of HYS are too similar to be very significant. Those people are incorrect.

Those are also the students at Cornell, GULC, UVA, and the like.

[ScrabbleChamp]

I can't access the link while at work, but I'm a bit unclear on the salary numbers you are reporting. According to the UMich website, of those that went into firms, 81% reported salary. Michigan doesn't report salary for those going into public interest, "business", or academia, which is 16% of the class. Aside from the 19% of people that didn't report firm salaries, only 9 of 34 people reported government salaries (big deal, it's not as if government salaries are going to vary that much, and nobody goes into governement to make $$$) and only 27 of 38 people reported salaries for judicial clerkships (again, big deal, clerkship salary info is readily available online). I don't think it fair to compare salary reporting numbers when one school auto-excludes 16% of the class from the information as is.

[Ludo!]

It's really tough to handicap the close race for "Most Egregious Troll of the Week" between the Rorassy obvious alt and the fake Paul Campos account. I'm glad they're finally facing off in the same thread.

I think mods confirmed it really is Paul Campos.

[TUP]

2007-2010 NLJ250 + 2007-2009 A3 clerkship averages below. Keep in mind NYC-centric schools probably see an advantage due to offer rates and market self-selection. These types of arguments are ridiculous.

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

[Paul Campos]

I can't access the link while at work, but I'm a bit unclear on the salary numbers you are reporting. According to the UMich website, of those that went into firms, 81% reported salary. Michigan doesn't report salary for those going into public interest, "business", or academia, which is 16% of the class. Aside from the 19% of people that didn't report firm salaries, only 9 of 34 people reported government salaries (big deal, it's not as if government salaries are going to vary that much, and nobody goes into governement to make $$$) and only 27 of 38 people reported salaries for judicial clerkships (again, big deal, clerkship salary info is readily available online). I don't think it fair to compare salary reporting numbers when one school auto-excludes 16% of the class from the information as is.

Let's leave aside the question of why UM is excluding public interest and "business" (whatever those are) jobs from its salary numbers. If you just look at the salary info for people in private practice, you'll see that the percentage with reported salaries fell from 93.4% in 2009 to 81% in 2010. This is on top of the fact that the raw number of grads with law firm jobs fell from 288 to 211 between those two years. Bottom line: in the previous two years UM reported salaries for nearly 80% of its grads, despite its odd exclusion policies. In 2010, that figure fell to 56.4%.

[portaprokoss]

I picked Michigan over Chicago (with a nigh identical scholarship offer from each)

On my first visit I took the law school audio tour and sat in on a class, on my second visit I went to ASW. I didn't like the aesthetics of the building, I didn't like the admissions staff, I didn't like the people I met, I didn't like the class I sat in on, I wasn't impressed by the students in that class, and I didn't like the location of the law school. This was devastating because Chicago had been my #1 pick throughout the cycle. I'm politically conservative, I wanted a small class size, I thrive on competition, and I don't mind an economic bent....so I thought that Chicago was the shit, until I visited.

My experience at Michigan was the inverse: thought I would hate it, loved it. I don't think Michigan is perfect--I'm not the biggest fan of Ann Arbor--but I think that there are very legitimate reasons to pick Michigan over Chicago. But, I realize there are also reasons to pick Chicago over Michigan.

What doesn't impress me, though, is the statistics game. Generally, if you're personality, networking skills, or grades render you unhireable out of Michigan, I don't think that having a Chicago diploma would improve your life. And I don't think that if you have what it takes to be a legal rockstar out of Chicago, that you would flounder out of Michigan. I think that what matters more than hair-splitting statistics, is that the school fits your personality. If you have the luxury of choosing between Chicago and Michigan consider statistics, but give more weight to "feel." It's hard to do that after playing the numbers game all throughout the admissions cycle, but it's well worth doing.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

I think everyone on TLS can agree that Chicago is a fantastic school. But to troll it and say that it's superior to NYU, Columbia, and Harvard is absurd.

Further, Bils is absolutely right. You can't compare Chicago to Michigan to try to make this point. Of course Chicago is superior. Some may argue that there's no statistically significant difference in placement between CCN and lower tiers, but a quick survey of the data dispels this. Yes, looking at the NLJ/Fed Clerk data is a good start, but it doesn't tell us the entire story. I think the real difference between CCN and lower tiers is job security below median.

[ahduth]

It's really tough to handicap the close race for "Most Egregious Troll of the Week" between the Rorassy obvious alt and the fake Paul Campos account. I'm glad they're finally facing off in the same thread.

I think mods confirmed it really is Paul Campos.

I still don't get it. Paul Campos = Quaker Oats?

[Real Madrid]

It's because TLS won't let you post links to that site (which again is a shocking statement about TLS's credibility and objectivity). But any way my post above tells you how to read it.

Basically the post talks about how Michigan has salary data for only 56% of its class (meaning 44% of Michigan's graduates were so pissed off with their job that they did not fill out the school's career placement survey). At Chicago they have 94% salary reporting. 94% versus 56%.

I'm sure you really did well on the LR section of the LSAT.

[Rorassy]

I picked Michigan over Chicago (with a nigh identical scholarship offer from each)

On my first visit I took the law school audio tour and sat in on a class, on my second visit I went to ASW. I didn't like the aesthetics of the building, I didn't like the admissions staff, I didn't like the people I met, I didn't like the class I sat in on, I wasn't impressed by the students in that class, and I didn't like the location of the law school. This was devastating because Chicago had been my #1 pick throughout the cycle. I'm politically conservative, I wanted a small class size, I thrive on competition, and I don't mind an economic bent....so I thought that Chicago was the shit, until I visited.

My experience at Michigan was the inverse: thought I would hate it, loved it. I don't think Michigan is perfect--I'm not the biggest fan of Ann Arbor--but I think that there are very legitimate reasons to pick Michigan over Chicago. But, I realize there are also reasons to pick Chicago over Michigan.

What doesn't impress me, though, is the statistics game. Generally, if you're personality, networking skills, or grades render you unhireable out of Michigan, I don't think that having a Chicago diploma would improve your life. And I don't think that if you have what it takes to be a legal rockstar out of Chicago, that you would flounder out of Michigan. I think that what matters more than hair-splitting statistics, is that the school fits your personality. If you have the luxury of choosing between Chicago and Michigan consider statistics, but give more weight to "feel." It's hard to do that after playing the numbers game all throughout the admissions cycle, but it's well worth doing.

Those numbers are not hair splitting. Chicago has significantly better placement into desirable jobs. Michigan's placement, on the other hand, looks like what you would expect from places like GW, WUSTL and other schools in the "below t-14 but above tier 2" range. Regarding the stuff you said about how the only people who don't get jobs out of Michigan are those with bad personalities who did not network, well that is literally taken out of the low ranked career services office handbook. Congratulations Michigan Law PR person, you're now using Cooley-esque arguments.

And really? Did you really claim that the aesthetics of the building should be a key consideration? To each his own, I guess, but that seems silly to me. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it should be all about academics and job placement. For example, the area, city and local night life should be a factor, and University of Chicago certainly does well by those metrics.