reallyyy screwed up Forum

[071816]

[20130312]

[img]simpsons.gif[/img]

That's fantastic

[Samara]

Hah! He ended up giving me an A. After all that stressing. After he began his email response with "Unfortunately, it's too late..." What a trickster.

I truly wasn't trying to piss anyone off...

As someone else said, being a reverse splitter really sucks, and I see having OVER a 4.0 as the only thing that could possibly get me out of the auto-reject pile and into the maybe pile. I do have a social life (to whoever said I'll "fit in" at law school), but I also put an immense amount of time and effort into my classes, which I have always felt is the main reason a person GOES to college in the first place. I take classes that interest me and put my all in them. I don't think I could sleep at night if I put any more time into improving a standardized test score by a few points when I need that time for a research job/ my sanity. I already had my chance after a lot of studying, didn't do great, and am working with what I've got.

[Ialdabaoth]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but it seems like a lot of people here have strong feelings about retaking 165+ LSATs for people with close to 4.0 GPAs.

I got a 168 in December 2010 during my junior year. That was 4 points above my highest PT. My PT average was closer to 161. Almost everything I missed was in LG; score breakdown of -13 LG, -3 LR, -1 RC. I know this looks like I should definitely just study more for LG, but my highest PT was a 164 (and wasn't timed perfectly), and I vastly outperformed my LR and RC averages to get a 168. I took a class and studied a lot for LG and still suck at it.

At what score should I consistently be PTing to warrant a retake?

Please, don't just scream, "RETAKE." I really think I have a bit of a different situation here than most people. Thanks!

[Samara]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but it seems like a lot of people here have strong feelings about retaking 165+ LSATs for people with close to 4.0 GPAs.

I got a 168 in December 2010 during my junior year. That was 4 points above my highest PT. My PT average was closer to 161. Almost everything I missed was in LG; score breakdown of -13 LG, -3 LR, -1 RC. I know this looks like I should definitely just study more for LG, but my highest PT was a 164 (and wasn't timed perfectly), and I vastly outperformed my LR and RC averages to get a 168. I took a class and studied a lot for LG and still suck at it.

At what score should I consistently be PTing to warrant a retake?

Please, don't just scream, "RETAKE." I really think I have a bit of a different situation here than most people. Thanks!

Take some time off after you graduate, get a halfway decent job, and devote a significant amount of time to studying. You'll have a stronger app, be better prepared, more employable, enjoy your 20s a bit, and probably have a higher LSAT score. LG is extremely learnable. I'm quite confident you can improve. How much studying did you do? What methods did you use to learn LG? If you only took it the one time, this is especially credited. I know of some people on here (such as Eichorchen) who have similarly struggled with LG and can probably help you find a way to succeed. Sometimes, it takes trying a bunch of different methods to find the one that clicks. The LSAT forum has a lot of good help.

ETA: And not to be mean, but it is extremely rare that someone on TLS has a unique situation. I'm sure there are a lot of threads that address your situation.

[Ialdabaoth]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but it seems like a lot of people here have strong feelings about retaking 165+ LSATs for people with close to 4.0 GPAs.

I got a 168 in December 2010 during my junior year. That was 4 points above my highest PT. My PT average was closer to 161. Almost everything I missed was in LG; score breakdown of -13 LG, -3 LR, -1 RC. I know this looks like I should definitely just study more for LG, but my highest PT was a 164 (and wasn't timed perfectly), and I vastly outperformed my LR and RC averages to get a 168. I took a class and studied a lot for LG and still suck at it.

At what score should I consistently be PTing to warrant a retake?

Please, don't just scream, "RETAKE." I really think I have a bit of a different situation here than most people. Thanks!

Take some time off after you graduate, get a halfway decent job, and devote a significant amount of time to studying. You'll have a stronger app, be better prepared, more employable, enjoy your 20s a bit, and probably have a higher LSAT score. LG is extremely learnable. I'm quite confident you can improve. How much studying did you do? What methods did you use to learn LG? If you only took it the one time, this is especially credited. I know of some people on here (such as Eichorchen) who have similarly struggled with LG and can probably help you find a way to succeed. Sometimes, it takes trying a bunch of different methods to find the one that clicks. The LSAT forum has a lot of good help.

ETA: And not to be mean, but it is extremely rare that someone on TLS has a unique situation. I'm sure there are a lot of threads that address your situation.

Thanks for your response! I especially appreciate your recommendation about trying different methods/approaches. Not to sound like a total asshole, but failing at LG was probably the most demoralizing academic experience of my life. I took a Knewton prep class and worked hard at it, but LG just never "clicked" for me. I am taking at least a year off between UG and law school. I plan to apply for Americorps positions and a couple of environmental fellowships (related to my career interests). I realize I don't have a truly unique situation, but I'm mainly looking for opinions on what I should be PTing in order to sit for the LSAT again. I feel like I a got incredibly lucky on my LSAT (and feel guilty about it sometimes).

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but it seems like a lot of people here have strong feelings about retaking 165+ LSATs for people with close to 4.0 GPAs.

I got a 168 in December 2010 during my junior year. That was 4 points above my highest PT. My PT average was closer to 161. Almost everything I missed was in LG; score breakdown of -13 LG, -3 LR, -1 RC. I know this looks like I should definitely just study more for LG, but my highest PT was a 164 (and wasn't timed perfectly), and I vastly outperformed my LR and RC averages to get a 168. I took a class and studied a lot for LG and still suck at it.

At what score should I consistently be PTing to warrant a retake?

Please, don't just scream, "RETAKE." I really think I have a bit of a different situation here than most people. Thanks!

Take some time off after you graduate, get a halfway decent job, and devote a significant amount of time to studying. You'll have a stronger app, be better prepared, more employable, enjoy your 20s a bit, and probably have a higher LSAT score. LG is extremely learnable. I'm quite confident you can improve. How much studying did you do? What methods did you use to learn LG? If you only took it the one time, this is especially credited. I know of some people on here (such as Eichorchen) who have similarly struggled with LG and can probably help you find a way to succeed. Sometimes, it takes trying a bunch of different methods to find the one that clicks. The LSAT forum has a lot of good help.

ETA: And not to be mean, but it is extremely rare that someone on TLS has a unique situation. I'm sure there are a lot of threads that address your situation.

Thanks for your response! I especially appreciate your recommendation about trying different methods/approaches. Not to sound like a total asshole, but failing at LG was probably the most demoralizing academic experience of my life. I took a Knewton prep class and worked hard at it, but LG just never "clicked" for me. I am taking at least a year off between UG and law school. I plan to apply for Americorps positions and a couple of environmental fellowships (related to my career interests). I realize I don't have a truly unique situation, but I'm mainly looking for opinions on what I should be PTing in order to sit for the LSAT again. I feel like I a got incredibly lucky on my LSAT (and feel guilty about it sometimes).

Spending all 35 minutes on one game and guessing on the rest of the questions could get you a -13 on LG. Get serious about the test and enjoy Harvard.

[TaipeiMort]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

[Ialdabaoth]

Spending all 35 minutes on one game and guessing on the rest of the questions could get you a -13 on LG. Get serious about the test and enjoy Harvard.

Haha, I understand this sentiment, but I actually did fully attempt 2-2.5 games on the December 2010 test, and I don't think I ever scored better than about -8 on LG on PTs. Even considering this -8, I still greatly outperformed my PT averages for LR and RC, so I feel it would take a significant improvement to warrant a retake. Also, part of the reason I'm hesitant about retaking is that I want to eventually get into PI/government environmental, and although I realize that HYS would give me a significant boost on this, I don't think I would really be shooting myself in the foot to go to Berkeley, where I have a solid admissions chance with a 168, 3.95 (above LSAT median and above GPA 75th).

[Ialdabaoth]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

So if I'm a guy with a 168 and ~3.95, do you think those T6 predictions would still apply? I ask because I still haven't made up my mind about EDing NYU next cycle.

[bk1]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

This is the biggest reason to retake. Even if you were PT'ing at 150 and scored a 168 on the real thing you should retake since a lower score will not hurt you.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

Just because the distribution shape is different does not mean that top schools give women a marginal bump.

[Tiago Splitter]

Spending all 35 minutes on one game and guessing on the rest of the questions could get you a -13 on LG. Get serious about the test and enjoy Harvard.

Haha, I understand this sentiment, but I actually did fully attempt 2-2.5 games on the December 2010 test, and I don't think I ever scored better than about -8 on LG on PTs. Even considering this -8, I still greatly outperformed my PT averages for LR and RC, so I feel it would take a significant improvement to warrant a retake. Also, part of the reason I'm hesitant about retaking is that I want to eventually get into PI/government environmental, and although I realize that HYS would give me a significant boost on this, I don't think I would really be shooting myself in the foot to go to Berkeley, where I have a solid admissions chance with a 168, 3.95 (above LSAT median and above GPA 75th).

I spent several months trying to convince myself why I shouldn't retake a 166. There aren't any. Just give it one more good shot and see what happens. A lower score isn't going to hurt you.

[Samara]

Spending all 35 minutes on one game and guessing on the rest of the questions could get you a -13 on LG. Get serious about the test and enjoy Harvard.

Haha, I understand this sentiment, but I actually did fully attempt 2-2.5 games on the December 2010 test, and I don't think I ever scored better than about -8 on LG on PTs. Even considering this -8, I still greatly outperformed my PT averages for LR and RC, so I feel it would take a significant improvement to warrant a retake. Also, part of the reason I'm hesitant about retaking is that I want to eventually get into PI/government environmental, and although I realize that HYS would give me a significant boost on this, I don't think I would really be shooting myself in the foot to go to Berkeley, where I have a solid admissions chance with a 168, 3.95 (above LSAT median and above GPA 75th).

I spent several months trying to convince myself why I shouldn't retake a 166. There aren't any. Just give it one more good shot and see what happens. A lower score isn't going to hurt you.

Yep, and even if you retake and don't do so hot, don't be afraid to try a third time. I think NH has at least three people with scores like 166/168/176. Just a few points can make a huge difference. And if you still decide to go to Berkeley, 173 will get you a whole heckuva lot more scholarship money than a 168.

[TaipeiMort]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

This is the biggest reason to retake. Even if you were PT'ing at 150 and scored a 168 on the real thing you should retake since a lower score will not hurt you.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

Just because the distribution shape is different does not mean that top schools give women a marginal bump.

This could be true if female GPAs are different than male GPAs. However, if GPAs generally track LSAT scores, and women and men similarly in proportion to test takers, top schools would have to accept females at a slightly lower LSAT number for the percentages of males and females to remain stable. There just wouldn't be enough 99th-percentile women to go around otherwise. This might be a point or two, but definitely isn't an affirmative action boost. This effect would also require lower-ranked schools to give more aid to bring in women, and middle-ranked schools to actually possibly give men a slight boost. My assumption though is that schools are actually trying to balance male and female numbers.

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks guys!

I am really starting to lean more towards retaking in either June or October. I have a LSAC FW, so I guess I really don't have any reason not to if you don't think a lower score would have any negative impact on my applications.

Thanks for your support!

[Samara]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

This is the biggest reason to retake. Even if you were PT'ing at 150 and scored a 168 on the real thing you should retake since a lower score will not hurt you.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

Just because the distribution shape is different does not mean that top schools give women a marginal bump.

This could be true if female GPAs are different than male GPAs. However, if GPAs generally track LSAT scores, and women and men similarly in proportion to test takers, top schools would have to accept females at a slightly lower LSAT number for the percentages of males and females to remain stable. There just wouldn't be enough 99th-percentile women to go around otherwise. This might be a point or two, but definitely isn't an affirmative action boost. This effect would also require lower-ranked schools to give more aid to bring in women, and middle-ranked schools to actually possibly give men a slight boost. My assumption though is that schools are actually trying to balance male and female numbers.

According to this (LinkRemoved), females have significantly higher GPAs than males in high school and community college. I imagine it applies to regular UG as well. Thus, while women may skew toward reverse-splitter status, there's probably enough of them to balance out the lack of high LSAT scores.

[094320]

..

[TaipeiMort]

Just retake. If you do worse it wont matter much. If you do better you will actually get into a great school.

Also, girls get a marginal bump at top schools (1 point). This isn't common wisdom on TLS, but is based upon reality with the distribution shape differences between men (more in the tails) and women (more at median). If you can bring it up to a 168 and apply next cycle, you will get into at least one T6 RD, and with a 167 you may get into a T6 with an ED.

Do you actually have an LSAC study to back up the idea that the distribution pattern (which holds true in a lot of things) actually shows up for the LSAT? I'm also under the impression that women tend to have higher GPAs. Didn't make a difference for me, but it'd be odd if that was so.

I've only seen the data produced at on-campus seminars, not online. The data discussed was lsac data, not school specific. The GPA idea makes sense as well, but I haven't seen any lsac data on it.

[crumpetsandtea]

Thanks for your response! I especially appreciate your recommendation about trying different methods/approaches. Not to sound like a total asshole, but failing at LG was probably the most demoralizing academic experience of my life. I took a Knewton prep class and worked hard at it, but LG just never "clicked" for me. I am taking at least a year off between UG and law school. I plan to apply for Americorps positions and a couple of environmental fellowships (related to my career interests). I realize I don't have a truly unique situation, but I'm mainly looking for opinions on what I should be PTing in order to sit for the LSAT again. I feel like I a got incredibly lucky on my LSAT (and feel guilty about it sometimes).

As someone who re-took 3 times (168/169/176), I wanted to commend you for taking the first step down that long, frightening journey that is a retake ( ). If I could give you some advice, here's my 2c on the issue of retakes:

• You are SO LUCKY! LG is the easiest to improve. I know it seems terrible of me to say that because you have been struggling for so long, but honestly, this should give you hope. You are more than capable of reaching a 17X
• Get your hands on a Powerscore LG Bible--this will help you IMMENSELY. Also, do AS MANY DRILLS as humanly possible. LG is like math in that practice will help you learn the techniques the best
• DO NOT take the test until you are PTing 3-4 points ABOVE your target goal. When I retook for the second time, I was PT averaging at about 173-174 and I thought that would be enough. Instead, my nerves got the best of me and I ended up with a 169. For my second retake, I was averaging 177 and got my first (and only) 180 the week before the test. I ended up with a 176.
• BE CONFIDENT!!! So much of the test day is about how nervous you are. It seems like you're pretty good under pressure (see: your 4 point jump), which is an AWESOME thing. Make sure you don't rob yourself of that by putting too much pressure on yourself for the retake. You are AWESOME, don't forget it! There's no need to stress out so hard that you can't think on the day of the test. (:
• Shoot for the stars!!! Tell yourself that you are 180 or bust, and work that way. If you want a suggestion of how to prepare for a retake (in terms of scheduling) I wrote up an EXTREMELY detailed and long post about my suggestions for what to do when preparing for the lsat RIGHT HERE! The person I was responding to has a significantly lower starting point than you, but the principle and idea behind the post still remains generally the same.

[Ialdabaoth]

Thanks for your response! I especially appreciate your recommendation about trying different methods/approaches. Not to sound like a total asshole, but failing at LG was probably the most demoralizing academic experience of my life. I took a Knewton prep class and worked hard at it, but LG just never "clicked" for me. I am taking at least a year off between UG and law school. I plan to apply for Americorps positions and a couple of environmental fellowships (related to my career interests). I realize I don't have a truly unique situation, but I'm mainly looking for opinions on what I should be PTing in order to sit for the LSAT again. I feel like I a got incredibly lucky on my LSAT (and feel guilty about it sometimes).

As someone who re-took 3 times (168/169/176), I wanted to commend you for taking the first step down that long, frightening journey that is a retake ( ). If I could give you some advice, here's my 2c on the issue of retakes:

• You are SO LUCKY! LG is the easiest to improve. I know it seems terrible of me to say that because you have been struggling for so long, but honestly, this should give you hope. You are more than capable of reaching a 17X
• Get your hands on a Powerscore LG Bible--this will help you IMMENSELY. Also, do AS MANY DRILLS as humanly possible. LG is like math in that practice will help you learn the techniques the best
• DO NOT take the test until you are PTing 3-4 points ABOVE your target goal. When I retook for the second time, I was PT averaging at about 173-174 and I thought that would be enough. Instead, my nerves got the best of me and I ended up with a 169. For my second retake, I was averaging 177 and got my first (and only) 180 the week before the test. I ended up with a 176.
• BE CONFIDENT!!! So much of the test day is about how nervous you are. It seems like you're pretty good under pressure (see: your 4 point jump), which is an AWESOME thing. Make sure you don't rob yourself of that by putting too much pressure on yourself for the retake. You are AWESOME, don't forget it! There's no need to stress out so hard that you can't think on the day of the test. (:
• Shoot for the stars!!! Tell yourself that you are 180 or bust, and work that way. If you want a suggestion of how to prepare for a retake (in terms of scheduling) I wrote up an EXTREMELY detailed and long post about my suggestions for what to do when preparing for the lsat RIGHT HERE! The person I was responding to has a significantly lower starting point than you, but the principle and idea behind the post still remains generally the same.

I think you are the awesome one! Seriously, thanks for all the tips and encouragement. I had pretty much reconciled myself to being happy with a 168 and any T10 I could get into, but I'm starting to feel more positive. Thanks again and best of luck to you. I'm sure you'll end up somewhere great!

[crumpetsandtea]

I think you are the awesome one! Seriously, thanks for all the tips and encouragement. I had pretty much reconciled myself to being happy with a 168 and any T10 I could get into, but I'm starting to feel more positive. Thanks again and best of luck to you. I'm sure you'll end up somewhere great!

D'awww Thanks! And no problem, i know how it feels to 'settle' for a 168 when you know your cycle could be so much better with a higher score. The hardest thing to do, honestly, is to convince yourself you need to retake. Once you have the motivation, the retaking itself isn't that hard (except for the feelings of fear/insecurity/nervousness/pressure...but I'm guessing these are things we will have to become comfortable with as law students with grades and OCI anyway )

Unfortunately for me, my GPA is nowhere near as good as yours or the OP's. On the other hand, some T14s are chill enough that they are willing to look beyond a sub-3.0 GPA and take a chance on a super splitter, so hopefully I'll still get some good news (fingers crossed! &&). Good luck and I fully expect an update when you get into HYS in a year

[mrtoren]

If I don't hear from a school I would be happy to go to by mid-March I'll probably start studying hard to retake in June or October and re-apply, but until then I've got a thesis to write! To start studying now to retake the LSAT would mean not doing a thesis, which means losing an awesome research job and not graduating from the honors college at my public school. I understand how great it is to be ABLE to take the LSAT, but I will still be able to retake it in a few months. but after May, I'll never be able to redo my last semester of college and have access to all of the resources I have here again.

On a sidenote, I'm a "she," not a "he"

Please stay. This thread is too entertaining end on that note.

[AmandaPB]

If I don't hear from a school I would be happy to go to by mid-March I'll probably start studying hard to retake in June or October and re-apply, but until then I've got a thesis to write! To start studying now to retake the LSAT would mean not doing a thesis, which means losing an awesome research job and not graduating from the honors college at my public school. I understand how great it is to be ABLE to take the LSAT, but I will still be able to retake it in a few months. but after May, I'll never be able to redo my last semester of college and have access to all of the resources I have here again.

On a sidenote, I'm a "she," not a "he"

I studied every day for the LSAT during my hardest semester in college and I did fine. If you have above a 4.0 you’ll be able to manage. It’s only 4 months.

[Bildungsroman]

Retaking is for suckers.

[skers]

If I don't hear from a school I would be happy to go to by mid-March I'll probably start studying hard to retake in June or October and re-apply, but until then I've got a thesis to write! To start studying now to retake the LSAT would mean not doing a thesis, which means losing an awesome research job and not graduating from the honors college at my public school. I understand how great it is to be ABLE to take the LSAT, but I will still be able to retake it in a few months. but after May, I'll never be able to redo my last semester of college and have access to all of the resources I have here again.

On a sidenote, I'm a "she," not a "he"

Retake. Whether it's the difference in job prospects, location, or debt load (start actually thinking about the impact of $50k, $100k, or $150k with interest). Take your pick. There is no reason to brush off a couple months of studying and a three hour test and at the same bitch about a .02 difference in an already stellar GPA. It'd be worthwhile to take a year off so you can learn to not be so neurotic/chill the hell out, actually enjoy life before law school, get real world experience outside of the k-jd track, and get a year's head start on functional alcoholism which is probably the only type of gunning that can make a difference 1L.