Top Law Schools

I have wondered this for quite some time. Given their national reputation and all of the mystique that is ND, why haven't they moved ahead in the rankings? They have a top 5 business school if I'm not mistaken. There is no doubt that ND's name goes a long way in the non law world (I.e., the lay person is more impressed with ND than Chicago, etc.). So what's holding them back?

You are mistaken. Notre Dame is well regarded as an undergraduate institution and that is about it. Their business school is nowhere near the top 5.

Most lay person ideas of prestige are formed by 1) sports 2) undergraduate program ranking

USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

Bildungsroman wrote:

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

lol

Bildungsroman wrote:

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

I remember seeing someone's comment that you are the resident douche of TLS. I didn't read through the thread to find what comment prompted that observation. But thanks for the confirmation bro.

Bildungsroman wrote:

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

It definitely attracts this type of person, but I think its bigger transgression is turning formerly innocent people into this type of person.

Bildungsroman wrote:

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

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Also, this thread is redickulous trolling.

Trolling my ass. Legit question, terd!

BeerMaker wrote:Trolling my ass. Legit Stupid question terd!

FTFY

Its not even a well-regarded undergrad.

Take away sports. Would anyone care about the school, at all?

MrAnon wrote:Its not even a well-regarded undergrad.

Take away sports. Would anyone care about the school, at all?

To take a quick detour into srs poasts, ND's UG has been better ranked than its football team for recent memory.

bdubs wrote:You are mistaken. Notre Dame is well regarded as an undergraduate institution and that is about it. Their business school is nowhere near the top 5.

Most lay person ideas of prestige are formed by 1) sports 2) undergraduate program ranking and 3) the existence and strength of graduate and professional level programs

Edited for additional clarity. (3) is part of the reason why liberal arts colleges aren't generally as well regarded as their high research activity peers, and it's why some schools, (even those in the same "group") don't receive the same level of recognition.

BiglawOrBust wrote:

BeerMaker wrote:Trolling my ass. Legit Stupid question terd!

FTFY

You're cute.

I for one think it's a legitimate question BeerMaker. Given that, according to the 2009 Employment Data, ND outperforms most of the schools ranked with it in the combined stat of NLJ 250 and A3 Clerking; and the thread on this site discussing the most overrated and underrated schools, consistently mentioning ND as an underrated school, I'd be very interested in hearing why it isn't ranked higher.

BeerMaker wrote:

BiglawOrBust wrote:

BeerMaker wrote:Trolling my ass. Legit Stupid question terd!

FTFY

You're cute.

somewherewarm wrote:I for one think it's a legitimate question BeerMaker. Given that, according to the 2009 Employment Data, ND outperforms most of the schools ranked with it in the combined stat of NLJ 250 and A3 Clerking; and the thread on this site discussing the most overrated and underrated schools, consistently mentioning ND as an underrated school, I'd be very interested in hearing why it isn't ranked higher.

This is silly. Look at the rankings. ND is 23rd, ranked behind schools it has no business outperforming (with the exception of maybe 3 or 4). How high do you really think it should be?

Also, hate to break it to you gents, but the rankings are not based solely on job prospects.

BiglawOrBust wrote:

somewherewarm wrote:I for one think it's a legitimate question BeerMaker. Given that, according to the 2009 Employment Data, ND outperforms most of the schools ranked with it in the combined stat of NLJ 250 and A3 Clerking; and the thread on this site discussing the most overrated and underrated schools, consistently mentioning ND as an underrated school, I'd be very interested in hearing why it isn't ranked higher.

This is silly. Look at the rankings. ND is 23rd, ranked behind schools it has no business outperforming (with the exception of maybe 3 or 4). How high do you really think it should be?

Also, hate to break it to you gents, but the rankings are not based solely on job prospects.

That is a very good point. I'm not sure what I think their ranking should be, it doesn't matter to me since I'm not applying there, but I am curious because it's considered underrated. I actually just looked at the law school rankings methodology and I saw that career placement is only 20% of any given school's rank. I could see ND losing points in the quality assessment metric which is 40% of a school's score and is composed of peer assessment and lawyers/judge assessment, since lay prestige and Catholic affiliation doesn't necessarily equate to a very favorable impression by those in academia and practicing attorneys/judges. I would hazard a guess that its underrated status on TLS is based purely on NLJ 250 + A3 Clerking stats and lay prestige.

bdubs wrote:You are mistaken. Notre Dame is well regarded as an undergraduate institution and that is about it. Their business school is nowhere near the top 5.

Most lay person ideas of prestige are formed by 1) sports 2) undergraduate program ranking

Yeah, I agree. Am an undergrad at ND. Our grad programs really suck. Business school is about on par with the law school (low 20's). I think what this person was referring to is that our UNDERGRAD business school is #1 in the country, for whatever that is worth.

MrAnon wrote:Its not even a well-regarded undergrad.

Take away sports. Would anyone care about the school, at all?

That's just not true.

Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.

Bildungsroman wrote:

kaiser wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:USNews isn't designed to emulate lay perceptions of which law schools are best. That's why the rankings don't start with Harvard at 1 and Georgetown at 2.

I don't know a single person who thinks Georgetown is 2 in lay prestige. Maybe if I were from DC that would be different.

Ok, you could just see the larger point without quibbling over the exact "law prestige rankings" (a conversation this board has had enough), but I understand law school attracts the type of people prone to making unnecessary and subjective corrections at the expense of the broader discussion.

this sums up 85% of the discussion on TLS.

What are some of the ranking criteria that is holding a school like ND down? I wonder the same thing about, say, Vanderbilt. What is keeping Vandy from breaking the T14? Where are they falling short?

johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.

I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.

Hjones33 wrote:

johansantana21 wrote:Why it's mediocre ranking?

Cuz it's a mediocre law school.

I know this is TLS, but since when is 23rd rank mediocre? Especially when you consider a lot of people thinking that if you add more weight to job prospects it would be a t20.

Have you looked at job prospects?

There's a huge dropoff in job prospects from around 17ish to everyone below.

50% biglaw secure to 25%.