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I had been thinking about ED to UVA for a while, but had decided against it. However, I submitted a lot of my apps later than I wanted to, and got kind of nervous about my chances at T14s, so I decided today to ED to UVA to have a really good shot at a T10 (stats are 175/~3.4). I talked with my dad for an hour about this yesterday, and he said over and over the main thing I should worry about is minimizing debt (although I'm taking out all the loans myself- they aren't paying for anything), but I thought we reached an agreement that I was going to do this. He really wants me to attend UNC (which would be in state for me), but I'd still graduate with 100k debt from there.

So I had emailed my parents about my decision, and literally 30 seconds before I'm about hit submit on my app, my mom calls me and tells me that they didn't want me to ED, and makes me promise I won't do it tonight. I tried to explain to both of them that I would graduate with double the debt from UVA but the opportunities I would have would be worth more than double, which they seem unable to understand. I asked her if I was taking out the loans to go to Harvard, what would she say? And of course she says "really upset".

They say I don't understand how much money 200k in debt is (which is true, I don't really have anything to compare it to), but I say they don't understand legal markets (pretty obvious IMO since they think 200k debt from Harvard<100k debt from UNC). I know its my own life and obviously I'm going to make my own decisions, but I couldn't flat out do it when my mom had just made me promise not to do it tonight/until we talked it over more.

So I'm pretty upset about this...I had a huge adrenaline rush about to hit submit haha.

1) How much better is UVA (or any other T14 at sticker) vs. UNC at sticker? I want biglaw, but discounting that, overall I think that the opportunities at UVA (working for federal gov, clerking, PI) are worth double the debt. Am I right?

2) Can I/should I do anything to convince them? I've showed them LST and other placement stats, but they know older UNC alums so they figure everyone who graduates from there is fine.

I know this is a really immature sounding thread, its just really difficult to do something when your mom says "please don't do it tonight." I still plan on EDing probably, and it won't be contingent on what they say, but I'm just hoping that it doesn't have to come down to going directly against them.

in answer to 1) a lot better.
also, two things: 1) this is your decision, and I say this with no offense meant, but you're parents don't matter in this decision. They almost definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
2) You should not ED UVA. With your stats, you would have had a chance at ED to NYU (which you can do next year). Also, you are basically a lock to get one or more of MVP and at least 2 of DNCG with money.

So, don't ED UVA, but not for your reasons

JamMasterJ wrote:in answer to 1) a lot better.
also, two things: 1) this is your decision, and I say this with no offense meant, but you're parents don't matter in this decision. They almost definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
2) You should not ED UVA. With your stats, you would have had a chance at ED to NYU (which you can do next year). Also, you are basically a lock to get one or more of MVP and at least 2 of DNCG with money.

So, don't ED UVA, but not for your reasons

This was my initial reason for not EDing. Like I said though, I applied way later than I wanted to. No WE so I figure I was out at Northwestern, and figured I too much of a splitter for Duke. I'd love money at any of those though.

How much do you think I hurt myself by applying to MP tonight and CCN at the end of November?

Depends on where you want to practice. I think UVA is better then NYU for the South.

If I was in your position, I would work for a year and ED NYU. Getting a job would help 1. distance you from your GPA 2. make you more hireable to firms post-law school 3. make you monies 4. make you a lock at Northwestern/improve your chances generally. And in this economy (depending on what you want to do with a JD, there's really no rush to go to law school).

Blanket the T-14's you're interested in from CCN on down, acquire scholarship, profit.

Good luck!

westinghouse60 wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:in answer to 1) a lot better.
also, two things: 1) this is your decision, and I say this with no offense meant, but you're parents don't matter in this decision. They almost definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
2) You should not ED UVA. With your stats, you would have had a chance at ED to NYU (which you can do next year). Also, you are basically a lock to get one or more of MVP and at least 2 of DNCG with money.

So, don't ED UVA, but not for your reasons

This was my initial reason for not EDing. Like I said though, I applied way later than I wanted to. No WE so I figure I was out at Northwestern, and figured I too much of a splitter for Duke. I'd love money at any of those though.

How much do you think I hurt myself by applying to MP tonight and CCN at the end of November?

you have very little shot at CC because they tend not to take 3.4s especially those without very high LSAT scores. As far as lateness, someone will bite, though you may not do as well as if you applied earlier. You're probably better off reapplying next year if you don't get at least one of MVP now or a really good-sized scholarship at DNCG.

JamMasterJ wrote:

westinghouse60 wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:in answer to 1) a lot better.
also, two things: 1) this is your decision, and I say this with no offense meant, but you're parents don't matter in this decision. They almost definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
2) You should not ED UVA. With your stats, you would have had a chance at ED to NYU (which you can do next year). Also, you are basically a lock to get one or more of MVP and at least 2 of DNCG with money.

So, don't ED UVA, but not for your reasons

This was my initial reason for not EDing. Like I said though, I applied way later than I wanted to. No WE so I figure I was out at Northwestern, and figured I too much of a splitter for Duke. I'd love money at any of those though.

How much do you think I hurt myself by applying to MP tonight and CCN at the end of November?

you have very little shot at CC because they tend not to take 3.4s especially those without very high LSAT scores. As far as lateness, someone will bite, though you may not do as well as if you applied earlier. You're probably better off reapplying next year if you don't get at least one of MVP now or a really good-sized scholarship at DNCG.

How good is really good sized? I applied to CG a lot earlier (end of October) if that makes a difference.

And I probably should take a year off, I'm in UG now so I could boost my GPA maybe to CC range. But I go to a TTT undergrad and I have no idea what my options for work are right now, probably not great though. Part of the reason I decided to ED to UVA was that I wasn't convinced that at sticker, there wasn't a substantial enough difference between MVP to make waiting out MP>V as a near certainty.

westinghouse60 wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:

westinghouse60 wrote:

JamMasterJ wrote:in answer to 1) a lot better.
also, two things: 1) this is your decision, and I say this with no offense meant, but you're parents don't matter in this decision. They almost definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
2) You should not ED UVA. With your stats, you would have had a chance at ED to NYU (which you can do next year). Also, you are basically a lock to get one or more of MVP and at least 2 of DNCG with money.

So, don't ED UVA, but not for your reasons

This was my initial reason for not EDing. Like I said though, I applied way later than I wanted to. No WE so I figure I was out at Northwestern, and figured I too much of a splitter for Duke. I'd love money at any of those though.

How much do you think I hurt myself by applying to MP tonight and CCN at the end of November?

you have very little shot at CC because they tend not to take 3.4s especially those without very high LSAT scores. As far as lateness, someone will bite, though you may not do as well as if you applied earlier. You're probably better off reapplying next year if you don't get at least one of MVP now or a really good-sized scholarship at DNCG.

How good is really good sized? I applied to CG a lot earlier (end of October) if that makes a difference.

And I probably should take a year off, I'm in UG now so I could boost my GPA maybe to CC range. But I go to a TTT undergrad and I have no idea what my options for work are right now, probably not great though. Part of the reason I decided to ED to UVA was that I wasn't convinced that at sticker, there wasn't a substantial enough difference between MVP to make waiting out MP>V as a near certainty.

it's not about going to M or P over V, but the fact that you will probably get money at one of them. Since you can still raise your gpa, I would work for a 4.0 this year, take next year off and ED to either CC if you hit 3.5, or ED NYU otherwise. A substantial enough scholly at DNCG to not wait would be at least half, IMO. However, Ithink your best decision would be waiting, even if you can't get great work

Well don't go to UNC, but don't ED anywhere either. Apply broadly and negotiate for aid.

Yeah I guess I will try to wait it out and see what happens, if I don't get in to where I like I'll take a year off.

2 questions though:

1) I guess I should at least go ahead and submit my UVA app. I've heard I can still change it to ED later, how exactly do I do this?

2) If I ED to UVA still, can I decide not to go and take a year off and have no commitments for the next cycle?

Edit: also thanks for the replies, especially this late at night. If it weren't for TLS I wouldn't be near the position I'm in now to even have these kind of options, I probably would have been stupid enough to go to a T40 at sticker.

westinghouse60 wrote:Yeah I guess I will try to wait it out and see what happens, if I don't get in to where I like I'll take a year off.

2 questions though:

1) I guess I should at least go ahead and submit my UVA app. I've heard I can still change it to ED later, how exactly do I do this?

2) If I ED to UVA still, can I decide not to go and take a year off and have no commitments for the next cycle?

1) I don't want to tell you because I'm afraid you'll do it.

2) No.

IAFG wrote:

westinghouse60 wrote:Yeah I guess I will try to wait it out and see what happens, if I don't get in to where I like I'll take a year off.

2 questions though:

1) I guess I should at least go ahead and submit my UVA app. I've heard I can still change it to ED later, how exactly do I do this?

2) If I ED to UVA still, can I decide not to go and take a year off and have no commitments for the next cycle?

1) I don't want to tell you because I'm afraid you'll do it.

2) No.

Lol, see edit. I guess I should have a little faith and take TLS's advice.

I had a similar GPA and a worse LSAT and was applying during a more competitive cycle and still got T14 money.

Oh and my parents tried to convince me to go local cheaply too. They left me alone when it turned out it would be cheaper for me to go to a T14 (with merit aid) than our state flagship, despite a lower sticker price (and a sad little merit aid offer).

IAFG wrote:I had a similar GPA and a worse LSAT and was applying during a more competitive cycle and still got T14 money.

+1

OP, I'd like to think of this as an elaborate troll to get all of TLS in unison saying, for the first time ever, "DON'T ED UVA!" In which case, nice? I guess?



Yea but seriously don't do that.

descartesb4thehorse wrote:

IAFG wrote:I had a similar GPA and a worse LSAT and was applying during a more competitive cycle and still got T14 money.

+1

OP, I'd like to think of this as an elaborate troll to get all of TLS in unison saying, for the first time ever, "DON'T ED UVA!" In which case, nice? I guess?



Yea but seriously don't do that.

Lol I wish I was that subtle. From acceptances so far, how much easier is this cycle really looking to be than the last few?

westinghouse60 wrote: Lol I wish I was that subtle. From acceptances so far, how much easier is this cycle really looking to be than the last few?

Not EDing to UVA was a good choice in my opinion. As for how much easier this cycle really is, it is still too early to tell, but this cycle does appear to be easier based on preliminary data from LSN. For example, Duke and GULC are seemingly being more lenient GPA-wise on candidates who have LSAT scores of 170 as compared to the previous cycle.

I concur with all the above. I think it would be a waste for you to ED with that LSAT score unless you had a sub 3.0 GPA. That and what the poster above me said. From the anecdotal evidence I have seen and heard about it I wouldn't doubt if this cycle ends up getting easier if the number of applications don't start going up. I bet with a good "Why UVA" letter you would still get accepted this cycle- potentially with money.although doubtful. Heck, I wouldn't doubt if you get picked up at some of the other schools you have already applied to with some scholarship money as well.

As a side note, what is with the big drop in LSN profiles this year? Are people just afraid to put up their numbers publicly?

Don't ED! Just wanted to make sure that was clear. This is also coming from someone who did ED to UVA, but at least my first year of tuition and cost of living is covered through the GI Bill.

Um... you don't need to ED anywhere. You should get T14 acceptances outright.

If you did want to stay in-state, you would probably get killer scholarships from both UNC and Wake Forest.

I didn't read all the responses in this thread, but are you dead set on either UVA or UNC? Or a Top 10/15 for that matter?

seahawk32 wrote:My uncle went to a school ranked in the 30's and currently makes bank. My commonwealth attorney went to a school outside the Top 50 and is masterful. To reference a more pop-culture figure, Jose Baez went to St. Thomas University, and if you don't have a clue where that is, neither do I.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

InGoodFaith wrote:Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Do you follow me around? It feels like it.


Anyway

seahawk32 wrote:Though I really can't support this statement

seahawk32 wrote:Do you follow me around? It feels like it.

Nope, I just

--ImageRemoved--

lol

Just another +1 on don't go near UNC with those stats. I'm surprised they aren't giving you way more money.

And the difference between $200k and $100k debt is huge, but the job prospect differences between UVA and UNC are even bigger. Biglaw and you can repay $200k in a fair amount of time. Doc review and you'll never repay $100k. Not that you'll inevitably end up at biglaw from UVA or doc review from UNC, but you get the gist.

And stop listening to your parents. They may be well-intentioned, but if they are anything like mine, they have no idea how the legal world works. Shit like prestige matters, and things like a "good enough" school, similar to how it was in undergrad, are not good enough for most people.

And wait next cycle, apply earlier, and go lower.

And I'm done.

Submitted RD to UVA today. I also wrote why X essays for MVP, hoping that helps.