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bk187 wrote: (but then usually reject you).

boosk wrote:no one has answered the original question... can you WITHDRAW the original app? I dont see any reason why you wouldn't be able to withdraw any app before a decision was made...

Avrenim wrote:Thanks so much, everyone, for your replies. This is a difficult decision but I think I am going to call Admissions of School X tomorrow morning. I've gone over the ED contract and it says nothing about the applicant agreeing to anything PRIOR to an offer of admission being made, so it seems like they don't have much grounds to bar me from withdrawing...however, I realize it is somewhat sensitive given that admissions offices do seem to communicate regarding this sort of thing, so I do not want to piss anyone off. We will see how the phone call goes tomorrow. Wish me luck.

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Dean Z at Michigan had a very informative blog post about this a while back. Basically, I believe she said the general consensus is the contract is binding upon application, as the agreement is made at that point between you and the school: you are committing to attend, if admitted, in exchange for an early decision. However, it will really be up to the schol, as others have said. I think they have the right to hold you to it... But why would they want to admit someone that doesn't want to go?

Real Madrid wrote:

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Dean Z at Michigan had a very informative blog post about this a while back. Basically, I believe she said the general consensus is the contract is binding upon application, as the agreement is made at that point between you and the school: you are committing to attend, if admitted, in exchange for an early decision. However, it will really be up to the schol, as others have said. I think they have the right to hold you to it... But why would they want to admit someone that doesn't want to go?

Not sure if you misread Dean Z's article or just mistyped it, but I'm almost 100% sure she said she would let someone out of an ED contract if they asked, simply because - as you said - they don't want someone to be forced to go to their school if they are no longer interested.

And generally, yes, you can withdraw from a school before a decision is made. I have seen no ED contracts that include any language regarding the contract BEFORE an offer is made. Of course, you should just send the school a polite e-mail including as much detail as you can about how your situation has changed and ask them if they would switch you from ED to RD; if not, politely ask them to just withdraw your application altogether. And while it does seem like it would be an auto ding, there actually was someone on TLS last year that did this at Penn and was still accepted. So it isn't necessarily a killer.

PM me for more info; I know some details on this.

ScrabbleChamp wrote:

Real Madrid wrote:

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Dean Z at Michigan had a very informative blog post about this a while back. Basically, I believe she said the general consensus is the contract is binding upon application, as the agreement is made at that point between you and the school: you are committing to attend, if admitted, in exchange for an early decision. However, it will really be up to the schol, as others have said. I think they have the right to hold you to it... But why would they want to admit someone that doesn't want to go?

Not sure if you misread Dean Z's article or just mistyped it, but I'm almost 100% sure she said she would let someone out of an ED contract if they asked, simply because - as you said - they don't want someone to be forced to go to their school if they are no longer interested.

And generally, yes, you can withdraw from a school before a decision is made. I have seen no ED contracts that include any language regarding the contract BEFORE an offer is made. Of course, you should just send the school a polite e-mail including as much detail as you can about how your situation has changed and ask them if they would switch you from ED to RD; if not, politely ask them to just withdraw your application altogether. And while it does seem like it would be an auto ding, there actually was someone on TLS last year that did this at Penn and was still accepted. So it isn't necessarily a killer.

PM me for more info; I know some details on this.

Yes, Dean Z did say she would most likely let someone out of an ED contract, but she also said that the ED "contract" is in-force once the app is submitted, not once a decision is rendered. My main point was that, although the contract is technically in-force at the time of application, I think most reasonable schools would allow someone to back out prior to a decision being rendered. However, if they wanted to hold you to the ED contract, they would be able to.

blowhard wrote:Unless I'm missing something, she said neither of those things. She said unequivocally she'd let them out but she'd want to talk to them first. Nor did she say they were in force once submitted. I just checked her Early Bird Gets the Worm and Truth is stranger than fiction posts. Where are you getting that?

ScrabbleChamp wrote:

blowhard wrote:Unless I'm missing something, she said neither of those things. She said unequivocally she'd let them out but she'd want to talk to them first. Nor did she say they were in force once submitted. I just checked her Early Bird Gets the Worm and Truth is stranger than fiction posts. Where are you getting that?

"Striking a blow for applicant rights."

Quoted from an email from LSAC she quoted in the blog:

"Law schools should allow applicants the freedom to explore as many opportunities to pursue legal education as possible. . . . An early decision plan is one under which an applicant and a law school mutually agree at the initial point of application that the applicant will be given an admission decision at a date earlier than usual in return for the applicant’s commitment, at that date, to attend the school and withdraw all applications pending at other law schools, and not initiate new applications."

Dean Z in Truth is Stranger than Fiction wrote:But rather than metaphorically scratching my head for the entirety of this post, a more productive discussion might be to explore how I would have handled this call had it in fact occurred.

An orienting principle for me is this: I don’t want students here who don’t want to be here. That principle, in conjunction with the Thirteenth Amendment, pretty much ensures that I’m not going to browbeat anyone into matriculating, ever.

That doesn’t mean, however, that I wouldn’t want to have a discussion with a would-be withdrawer about the nature of commitment and so forth. I do work in higher ed, after all. Tiresome of me, to be sure, but I do feel some obligation to engage in a little education when a teachable moment calls me up on the phone. So can I imagine that the “lecture” allegation would have been earned, had the call been made? Absolutely.

Likewise, I can imagine that, depending on the articulated circumstances and motivation for withdrawing, I might want to attempt to change the caller’s mind. If the motivation stemmed from an inaccurate Michigan-specific concern, it is quite possible I’d want to be indulged in a little information-sharing. Recruiting, after all, is one of my principal job duties.

But that’s about it. No waterboarding, for example. No hollering. No tears.

Although the poster in question didn’t bring it up, I know that sometimes people worry about getting in trouble if they want to back out of a commitment they’ve made in the admissions process. But if someone were to approach me with their concerns, that conversation would never lead to a misconduct report on my part. (I might, however, feel differently if the applicant was not in fact forthcoming, and the information only came to me indirectly.)

blowhard wrote:

ScrabbleChamp wrote:

blowhard wrote:Unless I'm missing something, she said neither of those things. She said unequivocally she'd let them out but she'd want to talk to them first. Nor did she say they were in force once submitted. I just checked her Early Bird Gets the Worm and Truth is stranger than fiction posts. Where are you getting that?

"Striking a blow for applicant rights."

Quoted from an email from LSAC she quoted in the blog:

"Law schools should allow applicants the freedom to explore as many opportunities to pursue legal education as possible. . . . An early decision plan is one under which an applicant and a law school mutually agree at the initial point of application that the applicant will be given an admission decision at a date earlier than usual in return for the applicant’s commitment, at that date, to attend the school and withdraw all applications pending at other law schools, and not initiate new applications."

Uh, I read that as of the date accepted must withdraw and not initiate new applications. Not as of the date submitted. By your reading, you would need to withdraw as soon as you submitted the ED application. That language in no way controls withdrawals, nor is it an ED contact. It's a quote from LSAC describing how ED works generally. There is a HUGE difference.

Even if it was Michigan's ED contract, which it isn't, withdrawing in no way breaches that language so long as you do it prior to an admission decision. You're agreeing when you submit they will give you a decision earlier than normal and in exchange, you will withdraw when admitted. Nothing in there says you cannot withdraw PRIOR to acceptance. Sure, I guess they could still admit you anyhow and then you'd be bound to attend...but nothing prevents you from withdrawing prior.

You also didn't back up your assertion she would "likely" let you out of the ED. Her post is pretty affirmative she would switch to RD after speaking to you AND that was in the context of someone already admitted. In fact, she is arguing AGAINST binding people into ED and praising them adding "initial" to prevent schools (*cough* UVA *cough*) from convincing people into converting to ED after applying when they start getting stressed.

Also in another post (regarding someone already ADMITTED):

Dean Z in Truth is Stranger than Fiction wrote:But rather than metaphorically scratching my head for the entirety of this post, a more productive discussion might be to explore how I would have handled this call had it in fact occurred.

An orienting principle for me is this: I don’t want students here who don’t want to be here. That principle, in conjunction with the Thirteenth Amendment, pretty much ensures that I’m not going to browbeat anyone into matriculating, ever.

That doesn’t mean, however, that I wouldn’t want to have a discussion with a would-be withdrawer about the nature of commitment and so forth. I do work in higher ed, after all. Tiresome of me, to be sure, but I do feel some obligation to engage in a little education when a teachable moment calls me up on the phone. So can I imagine that the “lecture” allegation would have been earned, had the call been made? Absolutely.

Likewise, I can imagine that, depending on the articulated circumstances and motivation for withdrawing, I might want to attempt to change the caller’s mind. If the motivation stemmed from an inaccurate Michigan-specific concern, it is quite possible I’d want to be indulged in a little information-sharing. Recruiting, after all, is one of my principal job duties.

But that’s about it. No waterboarding, for example. No hollering. No tears.

Although the poster in question didn’t bring it up, I know that sometimes people worry about getting in trouble if they want to back out of a commitment they’ve made in the admissions process. But if someone were to approach me with their concerns, that conversation would never lead to a misconduct report on my part. (I might, however, feel differently if the applicant was not in fact forthcoming, and the information only came to me indirectly.)

And btw, I know her views because I've spoken to her about it. If you read back over the Michigan thread, I told everyone she was posting this before she did. How did I know? Because she sent it to me after we discussed the situation that had every going crazy...a tls poster claiming the admissions office yelled at her for attempted to withdraw from ED after being admitted.

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Look... I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm simply stating that I believe a school has the right to not allow an applicant to withdraw from an ED contract. That is all.