Official Foreign Applicants Thread 2011-2012 Forum

[fingerscrossedxx]

Do you know if its harder for students to get jobs in the US after graduation if you're not American? I'm hearing that it makes sense that if two students are competing for a job at a firm and its easier for a firm to not have to go through the tedious process of getting immigration papers they will pick the US student over the Non-US? Do you think this is a concern we should take into consideration?

I know no more than you on that topic, alas. I only know the stuff about CPT authorization because I was on an F-1 visa for seven years, with a lot of F-1 friends.

If you read the thread by the "midlaw partner" in the legal employment forum, I believe he said that the need for employment authorization counted against job candidates at his firm. I find it hard to believe employment authorization would be a significant issue at the big law level, though, since the fee is so small in relation to big law salaries and the paperwork is hardly onerous. Of course, that's pure speculation on my part .

Thanks for the info though! Much appreciated!! Something to look into for sure :/

[canon1845]

Thanks guys!!

[danitt]

I'm curious. How do you guys feel about taking on the debt of attending a T6 (Or T10 or wherever you want to draw the line) at sticker? Would you advise doing this to an international student, considering that employment in the US after graduation to mitigate $250K+ in debt isn't a sure thing?

[fingerscrossedxx]

I'm curious. How do you guys feel about taking on the debt of attending a T6 (Or T10 or wherever you want to draw the line) at sticker? Would you advise doing this to an international student, considering that employment in the US after graduation to mitigate $250K+ in debt isn't a sure thing?

its what now? *proceeds to withdraw all applications*

[pn40]

Congrats to everyone for your acceptances! Just a quick question: I'm studying in the UK and will be applying to law schools at the beginning of my third and final year of uni. Obviously I'll be younger than most of the other applicants; my bachelors degree will also be a 3-year degree. Will these factors put me at a disadvantage - particularly at the T3 schools?

Thanks!

[canon1845]

Hey guys.

As you know already, our GPAs are classified into 4 different categories, "superior", "above average", "average", "below average".

Looking at this i thought this was a very general and non-specific way of evaluating an applicant's UG work. Hence, i thought, "does that mean law school's will almost entirely focus on your lsat scores for international applicants?". Am i right or wrong?

Also i was wandering, since our GPAs are classified in such ways, does that mean our GPAs will not be taken into account when the admission council calculates the median GPA of the accepted applicatns? (relates to my first question) And if yes, it strongly suggests that law schools are more likely to bear heavy weight to our LSATs than our GPAs right?

Bit random, but any reply will be greatly appreciated.

[bk641]

yes, the lsat is even more important for foreign-educated applicants because of the lack of relevancy of our GPA data. in the same vein, our GPAs also do not affect the schools' GPA medians.

[canon1845]

yes, the lsat is even more important for foreign-educated applicants because of the lack of relevancy of our GPA data. in the same vein, our GPAs also do not affect the schools' GPA medians.

Thanks Tiffany~

[junaman]

Hey,

So I'm desperately looking for aid from Columbia after they didn't give me any in their award letter. After calling the admissions office I was told to write a letter of appeal regarding both need-based and merit-based aid awards. Does anyone have any idea what I should put in such a letter? I'm not really expecting need-based aid, but am more applying on the strength of my LSAT and my "superior" GPA.

Is it worth mentioning a scholarship place I have the University of Melbourne (which is very well regarded locally, but internationally - not so much...)?

Does anyone want to take a guess at my chances of getting anything at all? Is it rare for someone with an above median LSAT to get absolutely no aid?

Thanks for your help.

[manofstraw]

Hey first time poster

So I have not wrote the LSAT's yet, but I am thinking of writing them in October. I know the LSAT score will be hugely important in my application process and much of where I end up will be determined by by performance in them.

I am based in England and I have a 2.1 law degree, which I think should be an "above average" and am a soon to be qualified barrister.

So I suppose my questions are
1) I know some colleges will allow me to do a 2 year JD, as I am a qualified lawyer in my country, but how do I go about this ? do I apply as a transfer student or apply the same way as other first years
2) Will be having a law degree and having a professional qualification already be an advantage in the application process ? and if so how big of an advantage should it be ?

[bisonprawn]

Do you know if its harder for students to get jobs in the US after graduation if you're not American? I'm hearing that it makes sense that if two students are competing for a job at a firm and its easier for a firm to not have to go through the tedious process of getting immigration papers they will pick the US student over the Non-US? Do you think this is a concern we should take into consideration?

I know no more than you on that topic, alas. I only know the stuff about CPT authorization because I was on an F-1 visa for seven years, with a lot of F-1 friends.

If you read the thread by the "midlaw partner" in the legal employment forum, I believe he said that the need for employment authorization counted against job candidates at his firm. I find it hard to believe employment authorization would be a significant issue at the big law level, though, since the fee is so small in relation to big law salaries and the paperwork is hardly onerous. Of course, that's pure speculation on my part .

Hi all, first time for me posting here.

Just wanted to add a little extra to Phil's information... There CPT and OPT. CPT is for employment that you need to graduate, OPT is for any sort of work (as long as it is related to your field). lovejopd lists some differing characteristics below.

I definitely think requiring EA hurts job prospects, probably less so in the larger firms with a dedicated HR person and bigger budgets. But even still, H-1B only lasts 3 years at a time, and getting a green card can be quite a hassle too. Int'l students just have to go the extra mile to prove that they are a more worthy candidate than citizens/residents.

For people interested in firms that hired the most H-1B visa holders in 2011: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-2012OC.htm
And 2010 numbers were so deflated: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-11OC.htm

Edited to remove incorrect information.

[AntipodeanPhil]

For people interested in firms that hired the most H-1B visa holders in 2011: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-2012OC.htm
And 2010 numbers were so deflated: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-11OC.htm

Wow - those numbers are shockingly low. According to the website they include "new, renew, and transfer" applications, and some of the new applications will be LLMs and laterals from foreign offices, I would guess - I recall seeing a few people like that on big law firms' websites.

I also didn't know that time on CPT cut into the amount of OPT time available. I guess that's a strong incentive to look for unpaid work during 1L summer.

[lovejopd]

Do you know if its harder for students to get jobs in the US after graduation if you're not American? I'm hearing that it makes sense that if two students are competing for a job at a firm and its easier for a firm to not have to go through the tedious process of getting immigration papers they will pick the US student over the Non-US? Do you think this is a concern we should take into consideration?

I know no more than you on that topic, alas. I only know the stuff about CPT authorization because I was on an F-1 visa for seven years, with a lot of F-1 friends.

If you read the thread by the "midlaw partner" in the legal employment forum, I believe he said that the need for employment authorization counted against job candidates at his firm. I find it hard to believe employment authorization would be a significant issue at the big law level, though, since the fee is so small in relation to big law salaries and the paperwork is hardly onerous. Of course, that's pure speculation on my part .

Hi all, first time for me posting here.

Just wanted to add a little extra to Phil's information... There's CPT for during school, and then OPT for after you graduate. As I understand it, the total time of CPT + OPT = 1 year max. Assuming student works 3 months per summer on CPT, there would be about 6 months left for OPT. This could be a grace period for international students to find work, wait out the employment authorization application time, or perhaps prove your worth to your employer/worm your way into their hearts before pushing for EA.

I definitely think requiring EA hurts job prospects, probably less so in the larger firms with a dedicated HR person and bigger budgets. But even still, H-1B only lasts 3 years at a time, and getting a green card can be quite a hassle too. Int'l students just have to go the extra mile to prove that they are a more worthy candidate than citizens/residents.

For people interested in firms that hired the most H-1B visa holders in 2011: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-2012OC.htm
And 2010 numbers were so deflated: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Lawyers-11OC.htm

Hello, as I understand, the CPT does not count toward the OPT as long as I do not use the CPT for more than 12 months. I am not sure that international students can use CPT for unpaid/paid internship or SA position. If law schools have CPT, do international students get benefit from this a lot? If so, should international students take into account which law schools have the CPT when they apply for law schools? If anyone knows the anwer, I really appreicate it!



http://redbus2us.com/f1-visa-student-wo ... s-cpt-opt/
Differences between OPT and CPT :

CPT : You can work after 9 months( one academic year i.e, Fall & Spring) after entering US. You have to work with the school to get CPT. Typically you get credit for working in CPT. It is legally working for a potential employer who is giving you an opportunity to prove yourself. Typically it is called Co-op or Internship. You can get paid in CPT. You might have to work with the career services at your school too sometimes. Some schools do not allow CPT if you not in the local city. You can only work in CPT until you graduate. You should not work more than 12 months (full time) in CPT. If you do so, you will not get your OPT. So, be careful ! Also, based on the program curriculum your DSO may authorize CPT during first semester, you need to check with your DSO.

OPT : A student can work in OPT after graduating from school. You will have to apply to US department of Immigration for approval to work in OPT. You will have to initiate this process approximately about 6 months before graduation as it can take time. Plan your OPT so that you are in OPT after you graduate. You will lose your status in US if you don’t have OPT started within 2 months grace period. You can work for anyone in OPT, there are no restrictions, but it must related to your course field. It is an option that US govt provides to international students for finding their right employers. You get an Employment Authorization Document(EAD) from US immigration to work legally after graduating. It is typically given for a validity of 12 months. With new OPT rules, if you belong to STEM Category you can get an extension for another 17 months for a total OPT of 29 Months. Read this article for full info : New OPT rules for from USCIS for 29 Months

[bisonprawn]

You're right about OPT/CPT duration. My apologies for the confusion.

My confusion was this: A lot of people apply for OPT while still in school because they're ineligible for CPT since a lot of schools don't see internships as requirements for graduation. As lovejopd said, CPT usually means you get some sort of credit for the work. Starting OPT during school cuts into your OPT time after school.

Also, CPT/OPT are for off-campus PAID internships or employment. For unpaid, just take the position and don't waste your CPT/OPT time.

[lovejopd]

You're right about OPT/CPT duration. My apologies for the confusion.

My confusion was this: A lot of people apply for OPT while still in school because they're ineligible for CPT since a lot of schools don't see internships as requirements for graduation. As lovejopd said, CPT usually means you get some sort of credit for the work. Starting OPT during school cuts into your OPT time after school.

Also, CPT/OPT are for off-campus PAID internships or employment. For unpaid, just take the position and don't waste your CPT/OPT time.

Crystal clear Thx!

[fingerscrossedxx]

You're right about OPT/CPT duration. My apologies for the confusion.

My confusion was this: A lot of people apply for OPT while still in school because they're ineligible for CPT since a lot of schools don't see internships as requirements for graduation. As lovejopd said, CPT usually means you get some sort of credit for the work. Starting OPT during school cuts into your OPT time after school.

Also, CPT/OPT are for off-campus PAID internships or employment. For unpaid, just take the position and don't waste your CPT/OPT time.

Crystal clear Thx!

thank you guys for all this information! it is so so so very helpful!

[fl0]

Threads.
Thanks guys, I will need this info one day.

[fingerscrossedxx]

You guys have been great help so far so I wanted to ask some advice :p I'm currently deposited at UCLA with a 38k scholarship, but I just got admitted to NYU with a 25k scholarship. I got the chance to visit UCLA and I loved the school, the faculty, and I thing I could do really well there, PLUS their scholarship is very substantial (for first year they added on an extra 6000 so I only pay 10k for my first year)

At the same time, I'm worried as an international student about job prospects. I keep hearing that as an international our best bet is to go for biglaw as those firms are more willing to hire us and go through the hassle of doing all that paperwork, and I know for sure NYU will give me a better chance at that, but at the same time its hard to turn down that money at UCLA. What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

[AntipodeanPhil]

What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

That's a great result! It seems to me that very few internationals get scholarships over half of tuition.

I think either choice is reasonable. Obviously, lifestyle factors should weigh heavily, since - in different ways - both are kind of extreme places to live. Which coast would you rather live on after graduation?

It seems to me that the biggest difference between NYU and UCLA, in terms of employment, is that NYU would give you a much better chance at NYC big law. I'm guessing the difference is much less outside of NYC. If you would be happy with NYC big law, and it wouldn't be too difficult for you to find the extra money, I think the answer should definitely be NYU - but those are obviously big 'ifs.'

I would be careful about making your decision based on an emotional attachment. I had a similar situation: I was accepted to a good school, visited, and then got accepted to a better school. I loved the first school during my visit, and it was really hard for me to send a deposit check to the second, but when I finally visited the second school I felt much better about it.

I think it's natural to develop attachments to a school, get excited about it, start imagining your life there, et cetera, and then very difficult to just let all that go. I think the only way to make an impartial decision, though, is to try and ignore that stuff, hard as it might be - unless you have firm reasons for believing you wouldn't have developed the same attachments to the other school (like you know you wouldn't like to live in NYC, for example).

[lovejopd]

You guys have been great help so far so I wanted to ask some advice :p I'm currently deposited at UCLA with a 38k scholarship, but I just got admitted to NYU with a 25k scholarship. I got the chance to visit UCLA and I loved the school, the faculty, and I thing I could do really well there, PLUS their scholarship is very substantial (for first year they added on an extra 6000 so I only pay 10k for my first year)

At the same time, I'm worried as an international student about job prospects. I keep hearing that as an international our best bet is to go for biglaw as those firms are more willing to hire us and go through the hassle of doing all that paperwork, and I know for sure NYU will give me a better chance at that, but at the same time its hard to turn down that money at UCLA. What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

Do you have any savings? or Will your parents foot the bill a bit?
Hmm...13k*3=$39,000 is a huge, but If I were you, I would choose NYU over UCLA as an International Student...

[fingerscrossedxx]

You guys have been great help so far so I wanted to ask some advice :p I'm currently deposited at UCLA with a 38k scholarship, but I just got admitted to NYU with a 25k scholarship. I got the chance to visit UCLA and I loved the school, the faculty, and I thing I could do really well there, PLUS their scholarship is very substantial (for first year they added on an extra 6000 so I only pay 10k for my first year)

At the same time, I'm worried as an international student about job prospects. I keep hearing that as an international our best bet is to go for biglaw as those firms are more willing to hire us and go through the hassle of doing all that paperwork, and I know for sure NYU will give me a better chance at that, but at the same time its hard to turn down that money at UCLA. What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

Do you have any savings? or Will your parents foot the bill a bit?
Hmm...13k*3=$39,000 is a huge, but If I were you, I would choose NYU over UCLA as an International Student...

Its true, it is a huge investment :p My parents wont be footing anything at least for the first year, maybe in later years, but I do have a US cosigner (thank GOD) that will be helping me take out a private loan. so its scary not just cuz IM going into debt, but my cosigner is on the hook for that one as well :/

[danitt]

You guys have been great help so far so I wanted to ask some advice :p I'm currently deposited at UCLA with a 38k scholarship, but I just got admitted to NYU with a 25k scholarship. I got the chance to visit UCLA and I loved the school, the faculty, and I thing I could do really well there, PLUS their scholarship is very substantial (for first year they added on an extra 6000 so I only pay 10k for my first year)

At the same time, I'm worried as an international student about job prospects. I keep hearing that as an international our best bet is to go for biglaw as those firms are more willing to hire us and go through the hassle of doing all that paperwork, and I know for sure NYU will give me a better chance at that, but at the same time its hard to turn down that money at UCLA. What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

Do you have any savings? or Will your parents foot the bill a bit?
Hmm...13k*3=$39,000 is a huge, but If I were you, I would choose NYU over UCLA as an International Student...

Its true, it is a huge investment :p My parents wont be footing anything at least for the first year, maybe in later years, but I do have a US cosigner (thank GOD) that will be helping me take out a private loan. so its scary not just cuz IM going into debt, but my cosigner is on the hook for that one as well :/

I feel you. I want to go to the best school I can but sometimes I can feel myself wavering for cheaper options because I don't want to fuck up my co-signer's credit.

[fingerscrossedxx]

What do you guys think? Would I be crazy to go for UCLA over NYU?

That's a great result! It seems to me that very few internationals get scholarships over half of tuition.

I think either choice is reasonable. Obviously, lifestyle factors should weigh heavily, since - in different ways - both are kind of extreme places to live. Which coast would you rather live on after graduation?

It seems to me that the biggest difference between NYU and UCLA, in terms of employment, is that NYU would give you a much better chance at NYC big law. I'm guessing the difference is much less outside of NYC. If you would be happy with NYC big law, and it wouldn't be too difficult for you to find the extra money, I think the answer should definitely be NYU - but those are obviously big 'ifs.'

I would be careful about making your decision based on an emotional attachment. I had a similar situation: I was accepted to a good school, visited, and then got accepted to a better school. I loved the first school during my visit, and it was really hard for me to send a deposit check to the second, but when I finally visited the second school I felt much better about it.

I think it's natural to develop attachments to a school, get excited about it, start imagining your life there, et cetera, and then very difficult to just let all that go. I think the only way to make an impartial decision, though, is to try and ignore that stuff, hard as it might be - unless you have firm reasons for believing you wouldn't have developed the same attachments to the other school (like you know you wouldn't like to live in NYC, for example).

I think lifestlyle I could live either way, have visited NYC and loved it, loved LA as well. very different but I think I could be happy both sides, and I think I'm one of those few birds who would thrive in big law, i like the lifestyle.

but yea I think the big thing is that emotional attachment, cause now I'm not just turning down a school i'm turning down people haha. But I think in this case I need to suck it up. But my, 147k in debt is not an exciting prospect :/

[fingerscrossedxx]

Just a quick update, NYU didnt increase their scholarship offer, and for some reason I was really hoping they would. So at the end of the day as much as I wanted to go I decided to turn them down. I'm not sure if my co-signer would be okay with me taking on an extra 20k in loans per year so I went with the money. And also riding out that H waitlist and praying to dear God VERY happy with UCLA though so not too bummed about it.

Oh the joys of being an international applicant :p

[tinashe]

yes, the lsat is even more important for foreign-educated applicants because of the lack of relevancy of our GPA data. in the same vein, our GPAs also do not affect the schools' GPA medians.

Is this for every international applicant (the not affecting the school's median part)?
Or is that just from the country you are applying from?

I think LSAC says they convert Canadian GPAs and send those to schools just like U.S GPAs?