Top Law Schools

So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

These days... WE. HLS, at least, is actively looking for students with 1 year or more of WE.

Almost everyone with stellar numbers are applying to HYS. Not all will get admitted. I think you see where this is going...


But I say Cooley, FTW.

I think getting into HLS is pretty straightforward: a 175+ LSAT and 3.9+ GPA make it pretty probable.

vanwinkle wrote:

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

These days... WE. HLS, at least, is actively looking for students with 1 year or more of WE.

What kind of WE?

vanwinkle wrote:

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

These days... WE. HLS, at least, is actively looking for students with 1 year or more of WE.

So you can't just go straight out of UG?

blink wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

These days... WE. HLS, at least, is actively looking for students with 1 year or more of WE.

What kind of WE?

The after-graduating-college kind. Beyond that, I don't think there are hard and fast rules, though anything that demonstrates maturity, leadership, responsibility, etc. would look better.

Helicio wrote:So you can't just go straight out of UG?

That's getting tougher and tougher. I heard something like 3/4 of the entering class at HLS will have at least 1 year of WE.

wow. btw, vanwinkle, how do splitters fare at HLS? There's a gap in data on LSN. Below their 25th in GPA and above their 75th in LSAT. jw. thanks

blink wrote:wow. btw, vanwinkle, how do splitters fare at HLS? There's a gap in data on LSN. Below their 25th in GPA and above their 75th in LSAT. jw. thanks

Unless by splitter you mean 3.7/180, non-urm splitters don't get in.

Verity wrote:Almost everyone with stellar numbers are applying to HYS. Not all will get admitted. I think you see where this is going...

But I say Cooley, FTW.

This is exactly why softs ARE so important at top or elite schools. Because law admissions is mostly a self-selected process, i.e. students tend to apply where their numbers give them their best chances, nearly everyone applying to HYS will have great numbers. This means the adcoms at those schools have to distinguish between students somehow. It can be argued that they need to place even greater emphasis on softs than do their lower-ranked counterparts. Students with lower numbers but truly great softs can often benefit from this dynamic.

You won't see them on LSN, but there are 2.8-3.5/150-159 students who get into HYS precisely because of this.

At the same time, lower-ranked schools must look beyond numbers, because the students with the most competitive numbers may opt for the higher ranked schools or choose for specialty and regional reasons. So softs matter there, too. And when you get to TTT/TTTT schools, everyone tends to have lower numbers or strong regional preferences, increasing the competition for seats among working professionals, students with families, etc., so those schools have to employ softs to distinguish students.

Bottom line: Softs matter at ALL schools, and they matter as much - if not more - at top schools as at lower ranked schools. The fact that many students get into HYS with crummy softs doesn't change that fact. The "Sebastian Vandersloots" of the world (sounds Upper East Side NY, right? lol) have connections and legacies, and those are the cases where lack of softs don't matter. Their daddys' checks are their softs.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

blink wrote:wow. btw, vanwinkle, how do splitters fare at HLS? There's a gap in data on LSN. Below their 25th in GPA and above their 75th in LSAT. jw. thanks

Unless by splitter you mean 3.7/180, non-urm splitters don't get in.

so is LSP too generous in cases like 3.48 180? Says Strong Consider...

blink wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:

blink wrote:wow. btw, vanwinkle, how do splitters fare at HLS? There's a gap in data on LSN. Below their 25th in GPA and above their 75th in LSAT. jw. thanks

Unless by splitter you mean 3.7/180, non-urm splitters don't get in.

so is LSP too generous in cases like 3.48 180? Says Strong Consider...

Haha yeah lsp is misleadingly optimistic for splitters. Go back several years on lsn and you will see no one getting in with those numbers. I wish it weren't the case and I'm applying anyway, but that's how it is. No matter what the poster above wants you to believe.

Tiago Splitter wrote:

blink wrote:

Tiago Splitter wrote:

blink wrote:wow. btw, vanwinkle, how do splitters fare at HLS? There's a gap in data on LSN. Below their 25th in GPA and above their 75th in LSAT. jw. thanks

Unless by splitter you mean 3.7/180, non-urm splitters don't get in.

so is LSP too generous in cases like 3.48 180? Says Strong Consider...

Haha yeah lsp is misleadingly optimistic for splitters. Go back several years on lsn and you will see no one getting in with those numbers. I wish it weren't the case and I'm applying anyway, but that's how it is. No matter what the poster above wants you to believe.

I thought it said in the LSP 3.0 thread that it was pessimistic (sp?) for extreme (high) splitters like those with your numbers....Damn. Well I'll be watching your cycle closely lol are you blanketing the T14?

I think I already know the answer to this, but what about work experience during undergrad? As in, holding a job while taking classes and then having relevant full time work over the summer as well? I realize this is not the same as post-grad WE but is it given any weight along with those candidates or does it simply make an applicant look marginally better as a "soft" compared to others straight out of UG?

I'm looking to apply right out of UG, and would consider taking a year off to work if my cycle doesn't leave me with the options I want, but I feel with the job market the way that it is right now, it'd be an uphill battle to land a better job than the one I have during school now anyways

Vanwinkle, can you say approximately how much of the class is comprised of URMs? I ask because more than 130 people are admitted (who matriculate) with below a 3.78 (by definition). I'm curious what gets these people in, supposing there is a sizable non-urm portion. Super splitters? WE? Softs? Money?

blink wrote: I thought it said in the LSP 3.0 thread that it was pessimistic (sp?) for extreme (high) splitters like those with your numbers....Damn. Well I'll be watching your cycle closely lol are you blanketing the T14?

I'll be sending apps to most of Columbia through Georgetown, plus a token app to Harvard. Maybe six years work experience will make me the exception, but I won't hold my breath.

Real Madrid wrote:I think getting into HLS is pretty straightforward: a 175+ LSAT and 3.9+ GPA make it pretty probable.

I'm hoping this holds true for this upcoming cycle. I did a search on LSN for applicants with a 3.90+ and a 174+ and almost all of them get in for each year for which LSN has data.

Anyone know why some get waitlisted or rejected? Or are some just trolling LSN?

Harvard is certainly moving towards people with at least 1 year of WE.

I would say the average age in my section is like 24/25. I know at least 15 people who are 27+.

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools? How much could decent softs help (or hurt)? How much does your essay matter? Does your UG institution matter at all?

Just curious.

Some people say that it's easier to get into HLS if you went to Harvard for undergrad. The idea being that they take care of their own. People also say that there's a small boost if you went to Yale or Princeton or one of the other elite UGs. I've never seen anything beyond speculation that supports these theories but they sound plausible.

Yale has their own review process. Read "The 12-Point Process" from this: http://www.top-law-schools.com/yale-law-school.html. They only accept ~250 kids every year and almost everyone who gets accepted ends up attending. Basically you need to be one of the best 250 law school applicants in a given cycle. I'm not really sure what that entails besides near perfect GPA and LSAT scores. Although, I imagine if you're one of these people you already know you're one of these people.

..

How is Harvard able to maintain such impressive LSAT/GPA ranges despite being more than two times the size of Yale and Stanford?

anstone1988 wrote:How is Harvard able to maintain such impressive LSAT/GPA ranges despite being more than two times the size of Yale and Stanford?

Because it's Harvard

Because it's Harvard

you really asked that question?

moopness wrote:Vanwinkle, can you say approximately how much of the class is comprised of URMs? I ask because more than 130 people are admitted (who matriculate) with below a 3.78 (by definition). I'm curious what gets these people in, supposing there is a sizable non-urm portion. Super splitters? WE? Softs? Money?

I can speak a little to this question, as I know two people over the last few years to get into HLS with significantly below 25th percentile LSATs (low 160s) and what I would assume were around or above 75th percentile GPAs.

Both were Rhodes/Marshall candidates (and winners of one or the other), which means they most likely had strong PSs, grad work, relevant WE, and great LORs. Since the Rhodes allows 8 LORs that typically are compiled by your school before being sent, you usually have an idea of who your best bets are when it comes to future applications.

So while these people do get in on their "softs," they aren't typical run-of-the-mill softs from my experience. Most will have started successful non-profits, spent time with refugees in war zones, had pieces published in major newspapers or important magazines, worked as research assistants to Nobel Laureates who write them LORs, etc. and even all of the above. If you have this background, I don't think being below the 25h percentile as a non-URM is the death knoll to your application. While I could be wrong, I also don't think an exceptionally crafty PS is going to overcome the splitter status alone. Its still worth applying. You never know and you'll always wonder otherwise! I am sure some defy the odds and the "typical" categories.

Helicio wrote:So beyond having a great GPA and LSAT, is there anything else you NEED to have a good shot at one of these schools?

A generous/hands-on deity wouldn't hurt.