Top Law Schools

Hi, I was looking to Columbia University's JD/MBA program and just wanted to know how it worked. Is it harder to get into than regular Law school? Do you have to take both the GMAT and LSAT?

Yes, you have to be admitted to each program independently, meaning that both LSAT and GMAT are required; additionally, you are highly unlikely to get into CBS without several years of work experience.

With only a few exceptions, you have to apply and be admitted to both schools. Usually you can apply to the second school if you don't want to apply to both b and l school during the same cycle (most 3-year programs require acceptance for the same cycle). The word on the street is the backdoor method may be easier if the second school isn't as highly regarded (like applying to YLS, then Yale SOM). Also, some programs require you go to in front of a committee or something to enroll into the JD/MBA program after the getting into both schools (Harvard, for example).

Business school admission is actually holistic, meaning softs and work experience are very important. CBS is an ultra elite/M7 school, so it'll require more than a 3.6 and a 730 to get in.

nphsbuckeye wrote:So it'll require more than a 3.6 and a 730 to get in.

This isn't really true. Those stats are roughly median for CBS, and business schools in general care significantly less about numbers compared to law school (especially when it comes to GPA).

But yes, generally you have to have work experience (there are a few exceptions). For Columbia you have to take both the LSAT and the GMAT and apply separately to each school. If you apply as a 1L or 2L at CLS, it's probably marginally easier to get in, but not by much.

imchuckbass58 wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:So it'll require more than a 3.6 and a 730 to get in.

This isn't really true. Those stats are roughly median for CBS, and business schools in general care significantly less about numbers compared to law school (especially when it comes to GPA).

But yes, generally you have to have work experience (there are a few exceptions). For Columbia you have to take both the LSAT and the GMAT and apply separately to each school. If you apply as a 1L or 2L at CLS, it's probably marginally easier to get in, but not by much.

I know, I threw two very competitive numbers out to exemplify that it takes more than numbers to get into a M7 b-school. Hell, if you start a very successful company, you can probably get into a few M7 schools regardless of hard numbers.

Yes, it is tough to get into. CLS is obviously not a very easy law school to get into, and despite CBS being at the bottom of the M7 they have a very low admission rate.

That said if you have really good numbers (LSAT/LSDAS GPA , GMAT/GPA/Months of WE) for both programs you stand a good chance of getting in. CBS is more number and yield oriented than most M7 programs, and CLS is fairly easy to predict.

I don't know how it affects its acceptance rate, but CBS is a rare b-school that has a ED option.

What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Business schools are usually fairly well split between econ/business undergrads and engineers. The work experience that they look for are the type of work that grads with that background have, so consulting, banking, engineering, or gm rotations/programs. It's hard to "impress" the adcomms at most b-schools, but they are familiar with the above industries/job functions, so they feel comfortable knowing that those people will succeed in b-school.

Schools also take a contingent of non-traditional applicants who have backgrounds more similar to most experienced law school applicants, these admissions are really hard to predict though and depend a lot on your essays and numbers.

nphsbuckeye wrote:I don't know how it affects its acceptance rate, but CBS is a rare b-school that has a ED option.

If you have the numbers to get into CLS and the CLS/CBS program is your top choice, I would highly encourage doing ED applications to both schools.

Although this would prevent you from accepting Penn/Wharton, Kelogg/NU Law, or HBS/HLS acceptances if you had them.

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:I don't know how it affects its acceptance rate, but CBS is a rare b-school that has a ED option.

If you have the numbers to get into CLS and the CLS/CBS program is your top choice, I would highly encourage doing ED applications to both schools.

Although this would prevent you from accepting Penn/Wharton, Kelogg/NU Law, or HBS/HLS acceptances if you had them.

Hmm, I think it might be a better decision to not ED because you run the risk of being accepted to a single program (JD or MBA exclusively) and would thereby be compelled to attend without a dual degree.

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Class profile

3-7 years of successful experience at usually an impressive firm for CBS. Many people on TLS go to law school because they don't what else to do or have had crappy jobs - that will not get you into CBS. People who attend M7 b-schools have outstanding resumes and work experience - many people on TLS believe consulting is Plan B to biglaw, that is not the case as many consultants straight out of UG work at consulting firms; many people attend an M7 just for consulting.

Your UG and degree may account for more for b-school, but I have seen my alma mater on HBS -- you don't need to attend an elite UG to attend an M7. Some b-schools are more quantitative than others and want a certain amount of math and stat classes before matriculation. Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Leadership counts for a lot in business school. They want to see you take the reigns in and out of work. Management positions ostensibly show that, as well as officer positions outside of work in the community. Because hard numbers only count for so much, it's hard to say what work experience and leadership will get you into Harvard, Columbia, or Wharton. It can matter why you want to attend business school as well; they want purpose for you wanting to attend. I don't believe any LSN equivalent exists, though I may be wrong (people with high-700s/800 are regularly dinged).

glewz wrote:

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:I don't know how it affects its acceptance rate, but CBS is a rare b-school that has a ED option.

If you have the numbers to get into CLS and the CLS/CBS program is your top choice, I would highly encourage doing ED applications to both schools.

Although this would prevent you from accepting Penn/Wharton, Kelogg/NU Law, or HBS/HLS acceptances if you had them.

Hmm, I think it might be a better decision to not ED because you run the risk of being accepted to a single program (JD or MBA exclusively) and would thereby be compelled to attend without a dual degree.

I don't think you would be compelled to attend, but you could check with them.

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:I don't know how it affects its acceptance rate, but CBS is a rare b-school that has a ED option.

If you have the numbers to get into CLS and the CLS/CBS program is your top choice, I would highly encourage doing ED applications to both schools.

Although this would prevent you from accepting Penn/Wharton, Kelogg/NU Law, or HBS/HLS acceptances if you had them.

I didn't mention that because ED'ing is much more prevalent for LSs, and in which case, most people here know of ED'ing perils.

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Remember that economics is probably considered an LA degree for these figures.

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

I don't believe any LSN equivalent exists, though I may be wrong (people with high-700s/800 are regularly dinged).

Some people on GMAT club have put together information similar to LSN, although it never really took off. The data almost look like random noise though. It's common place for people to get HBS and get denied at Wharton, or Kellogg, and vice-versa

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Remember that economics is probably considered an LA degree for these figures.

Yup. And the top LA universities (Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, etc) are recruited at heavily by BB banks and consulting firms the same way they do other top private schools.

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Remember that economics is probably considered an LA degree for these figures.

Fair point. HBS is 43%, GSB is 50, and W is 44. Business is between 19-25. Who knows for what economics accounts, but LA still account for enough that advanced mathematical knowledge isn't extremely emphasized; b-schools that emphasize quantitative analysis usually have LA in the teens. But then again, if you're attend HSW, are you attending for the knowledge or networking/diploma?

nphsbuckeye wrote:

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Remember that economics is probably considered an LA degree for these figures.

Fair point. HBS is 43%, GSB is 50, and W is 44. Business is between 19-25. Who knows for what economics accounts, but LA still account for enough that advanced mathematical knowledge isn't extremely emphasized; b-schools that emphasize quantitative analysis usually have LA in the teens. But then again, if you're attend HSW, are you attending for the knowledge or networking/diploma?

For the most part, business school classes are a joke. You don't learn much of anything. I've taken some MBA classes and while our MBA program isn't the best, it's still top 20, and the classes were actually easier then some of my upper level econ classes.

Patriot1208 wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote: Fair point. HBS is 43%, GSB is 50, and W is 44. Business is between 19-25. Who knows for what economics accounts, but LA still account for enough that advanced mathematical knowledge isn't extremely emphasized; b-schools that emphasize quantitative analysis usually have LA in the teens. But then again, if you're attend HSW, are you attending for the knowledge or networking/diploma?

For the most part, business school classes are a joke. You don't learn much of anything. I've taken some MBA classes and while our MBA program isn't the best, it's still top 20, and the classes were actually easier then some of my upper level econ classes.

The only people I know who are attending HSW for the education are people who legitimately have liberal arts backgrounds and have never had formal training in accounting, marketing, or management. These are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

B-school kids work hard, but generally on non-academic work. If you go to an M7 program, you are expected to join as many clubs, competitions, and affinity groups as you can fit in your schedule without going insane.

Patriot1208 wrote:For the most part, business school classes are a joke. You don't learn much of anything. I've taken some MBA classes and while our MBA program isn't the best, it's still top 20, and the classes were actually easier then some of my upper level econ classes.

That's what I've heard (my question was largely rhetorical). And then reading b-schools' websites talking about rigorous academics made me chuckle when the preponderant opinion of how easy their academics are. "Cocktail degree", no?

bdubs wrote:

Patriot1208 wrote:For the most part, business school classes are a joke. You don't learn much of anything. I've taken some MBA classes and while our MBA program isn't the best, it's still top 20, and the classes were actually easier then some of my upper level econ classes.

The only people I know who are attending HSW for the education are people who legitimately have liberal arts backgrounds and have never had formal training in accounting, marketing, or management. These are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Yeah, that would be this guy.

B-school kids work hard, but generally on non-academic work. If you go to an M7 program, you are expected to join as many clubs, competitions, and affinity groups as you can fit in your schedule without going insane.

Yeah, I've looked at most of their websites and many have quite a few interesting/cool/neat/useful groups that few lawl schools have.

nphsbuckeye wrote:

bdubs wrote:

nphsbuckeye wrote:

dasani13 wrote:What kind of WE does CBS wanna see? As in, what can your UG degree get you that will impress them?

Interestingly, a plurality of Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton students are LA UGs.

Remember that economics is probably considered an LA degree for these figures.

Fair point. HBS is 43%, GSB is 50, and W is 44.

FYI -

Kellogg is 33% LA but more than 50% of those are econ majors
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Pro ... ofile.aspx

Booth is 49% LA but again more than 50% are econ majors
http://www.vault.com/images/pdf/samples ... Report.pdf

JD MBA's have a lower income potential than just JD's and just MBA's. Pick one.

fatdouche wrote:JD MBA's have a lower income potential than just JD's and just MBA's. Pick one.

That is just not true. Perhaps debt adjusted, but raw income potential is as good or better for JD/MBAs at top programs.

ETA: Your username is apt

bdubs wrote:FYI -

Kellogg is 33% LA but more than 50% of those are econ majors
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Pro ... ofile.aspx

Booth is 49% LA but again more than 50% are econ majors
http://www.vault.com/images/pdf/samples ... Report.pdf

Yeah, that makes more sense now. Majoring in economics, getting a really good job, and then attending an M7 makes sense instead of half of the class majoring in a cake major. I bet most LA majors went to a elite UG.