Thomas Jefferson School of Law vs. Western State Forum

[FeelTheHeat]

To the OP

Don't listen to these pretentious idiots. They are just annoyed that there are law schools out there that allow "non harvard types" to attend.

There are plenty of successful lawyers from Cooley, TJ, Cal Western etc. Graduates who pass the bar from those schools are lawyers and often have successful careers.

And there are plenty of people who play slots and win. Doesn't mean it is a wise investment. I'd like to introduce you to something called "probability." The vast majority of TJLS students will graduate without a job or with a job that barely can make ends meet. I don't think any of us plan to take out six figures of law school debt so we can work as temporary contract attorneys for $25 an hour in the basement of some biglaw firm. Graduating law school doesn't make you a lawyer; practicing law does.

Also, I don't think anyone in this thread goes to Harvard or anything close to it. So GTFO of here with your faux outrage at our non-existent pretentiousness. I wouldn't even tell OP (or anyone else) to go to MY law school at sticker price, so you can damn well better believe that I won't be telling OP to go to one of the absolute worst law schools in the country (and one that barely gives out financial aid). Also, no one said a word about rankings, so WTF is that all about? It's all about jobs. I couldn't care less where TJLS is ranked.

You're right about one thing. I am annoyed that schools like TJLS exist. I am actually appalled that they exist and continue to sucker in naive students and take their money. There are TENS OF THOUSANDS more graduates every year than there are legal jobs that require a J.D., and the majority of these jobs pay shitty salaries that will make your loans cripple your financial freedom for the next 25 years. With this oversupply of lawyers, guess who is on the outside looking in? Usually the people who go to shitty law schools like Thomas Jefferson, Cooley, John Marshall, etc. How can anyone possibly justify these schools existing, or worse, how can anyone justify adding MORE law schools? You could actually close all but the top 100-150 schools and STILL have an oversupply of lawyers in this country.

Before you come babbling some ignorant nonsense, do a little homework and a little thinking.

I am goddamn jacked up after reading that

[rman1201]

To the OP

Don't listen to these pretentious idiots. They are just annoyed that there are law schools out there that allow "non harvard types" to attend.

There are plenty of successful lawyers from Cooley, TJ, Cal Western etc. Graduates who pass the bar from those schools are lawyers and often have successful careers.

Before you come babbling some ignorant nonsense, do a little homework and a little thinking.

You're really buying into the Craplicant bit? Who incorporated his LSAT score into his username?

[romothesavior]

To the OP

Don't listen to these pretentious idiots. They are just annoyed that there are law schools out there that allow "non harvard types" to attend.

There are plenty of successful lawyers from Cooley, TJ, Cal Western etc. Graduates who pass the bar from those schools are lawyers and often have successful careers.

Before you come babbling some ignorant nonsense, do a little homework and a little thinking.

You're really buying into the Craplicant bit? Who incorporated his LSAT score into his username?

I figured he was a troll, but I like to err on the side of caution in threads like these because so many people like this actually exist. And I don't want people reading to get the wrong impression and listen to this crap.

[robotclubmember]

You're really buying into the Craplicant bit? Who incorporated his LSAT score into his username?

I figured he was a troll, but I like to err on the side of caution in threads like these because so many people like this actually exist. And I don't want people reading to get the wrong impression and listen to this crap.

There may be other lurkers who don't know. Consider it a PSA. Friends don't let friends go to TJSL.

[TheTopBloke]

To the OP

Don't listen to these pretentious idiots. They are just annoyed that there are law schools out there that allow "non harvard types" to attend.

There are plenty of successful lawyers from Cooley, TJ, Cal Western etc. Graduates who pass the bar from those schools are lawyers and often have successful careers.

Before you come babbling some ignorant nonsense, do a little homework and a little thinking.

You're really buying into the Craplicant bit? Who incorporated his LSAT score into his username?

You sir, are a moron.

[rman1201]

You sir, are a moron.

Sticks and stones... Sticks and Stones.

(repeated for emphasis)

[TheTopBloke]

You sir, are a moron.

Sticks and stones... Sticks and Stones.

(repeated for emphasis)

Makes sense.

[flexityflex86]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

TJSL has the nation's highest level of indebtedness. They rob the student's blind.

http://www.10news.com/news/26515555/detail.html

All of the money they rob from you will go to pay for a fancy campus that in no way benefits you. You think they'll be using that money to help you find a job? Wrong. "It is designed to facilitate interactions between everyone on campus in a comfortable, collaborative setting. That is the key to success in law school." According to them, comfort is the key to success in law school, lol. Too bad none of the students can get jobs and they all graduate with a huge pile of debt that CANNOT BE DISCHARGED.

Going to TJSL is the worst decision you will ever make in your life. The administration is unethical and deceptive and bent on taking your money and giving you no real prospects in return. Going to TJSL to find a better job is a really out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire solution to your problems. Man, seriously, please be a troll. Please don't tell me you're real.

Somebody told me a story about their cousin who went to Cooley and owns several 100k sports cars, and their other cousin who went to NYU, and is unemployed so it's possible to make money coming from TJSL. However, I'm tempted to think if this guy used TJSL to become a millionaire, he probably didn't need a law degree to make money in the first place. I'd realistically assess what your skill set is (go with your gut and 3rd person objective opinions), and assess whether you can make it big on your own, because nobody at any firm is going to help you get there when you graduate.

[flexityflex86]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

TJSL has the nation's highest level of indebtedness. They rob the student's blind.

http://www.10news.com/news/26515555/detail.html

All of the money they rob from you will go to pay for a fancy campus that in no way benefits you. You think they'll be using that money to help you find a job? Wrong. "It is designed to facilitate interactions between everyone on campus in a comfortable, collaborative setting. That is the key to success in law school." According to them, comfort is the key to success in law school, lol. Too bad none of the students can get jobs and they all graduate with a huge pile of debt that CANNOT BE DISCHARGED.

Going to TJSL is the worst decision you will ever make in your life. The administration is unethical and deceptive and bent on taking your money and giving you no real prospects in return. Going to TJSL to find a better job is a really out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire solution to your problems. Man, seriously, please be a troll. Please don't tell me you're real.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Robbing them? I'm sure they actually try to get them a job, but they have a rough time because they're a TTT. Give the school a break. I'm sure some well educated people come out of there, too.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Charging that much knowing they won't be able to deliver is robbing the students. They can close, or charge a lot less and be open about employment prospects - these are the only options for the school to actually maintain any semblance of integrity.

Dude, practically every LS charges 40k. Look at Touro. I think t-4's are great for people who are going to work for their family's firm or need a law degree to manage their business investments. I can even see it being useful for an actor/entertainer to have to protect themselves once established. I agree taking a TTT or even TT degree planning to support yourself in law without a family connection is very dumb. I think a school can charge however much it wants. I'm sure TJSL sugarcoats their employment stats, but how many t-1 law schools claim to have a 99% employment rate, not disclosing it is based on the sample of the survey, which is likely not a fair representation.

[Nicholasnickynic]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

TJSL has the nation's highest level of indebtedness. They rob the student's blind.

http://www.10news.com/news/26515555/detail.html

All of the money they rob from you will go to pay for a fancy campus that in no way benefits you. You think they'll be using that money to help you find a job? Wrong. "It is designed to facilitate interactions between everyone on campus in a comfortable, collaborative setting. That is the key to success in law school." According to them, comfort is the key to success in law school, lol. Too bad none of the students can get jobs and they all graduate with a huge pile of debt that CANNOT BE DISCHARGED.

Going to TJSL is the worst decision you will ever make in your life. The administration is unethical and deceptive and bent on taking your money and giving you no real prospects in return. Going to TJSL to find a better job is a really out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire solution to your problems. Man, seriously, please be a troll. Please don't tell me you're real.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Robbing them? I'm sure they actually try to get them a job, but they have a rough time because they're a TTT. Give the school a break. I'm sure some well educated people come out of there, too.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Charging that much knowing they won't be able to deliver is robbing the students. They can close, or charge a lot less and be open about employment prospects - these are the only options for the school to actually maintain any semblance of integrity.

Dude, practically every LS charges 40k. Look at Touro. I think t-4's are great for people who are going to work for their family's firm or need a law degree to manage their business investments. I can even see it being useful for an actor/entertainer to have to protect themselves once established. I agree taking a TTT or even TT degree planning to support yourself in law without a family connection is very dumb. I think a school can charge however much it wants. I'm sure TJSL sugarcoats their employment stats, but how many t-1 law schools claim to have a 99% employment rate, not disclosing it is based on the sample of the survey, which is likely not a fair representation.

Only one t1 claims to have 99%, if I'm not mistaken. But I understand your point. I mean, its flawless logic. It goes something like this, I think:

1. This is an incredibly hard legal economy.
2. It so incredibly hard that t1 schools are fudging employment stats.
3. It is okay to go to a t4 tjsl because they, like struggling t1 schools, fudge employment statistics.

[Nicholasnickynic]

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

TJSL has the nation's highest level of indebtedness. They rob the student's blind.

http://www.10news.com/news/26515555/detail.html

All of the money they rob from you will go to pay for a fancy campus that in no way benefits you. You think they'll be using that money to help you find a job? Wrong. "It is designed to facilitate interactions between everyone on campus in a comfortable, collaborative setting. That is the key to success in law school." According to them, comfort is the key to success in law school, lol. Too bad none of the students can get jobs and they all graduate with a huge pile of debt that CANNOT BE DISCHARGED.

Going to TJSL is the worst decision you will ever make in your life. The administration is unethical and deceptive and bent on taking your money and giving you no real prospects in return. Going to TJSL to find a better job is a really out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire solution to your problems. Man, seriously, please be a troll. Please don't tell me you're real.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Robbing them? I'm sure they actually try to get them a job, but they have a rough time because they're a TTT. Give the school a break. I'm sure some well educated people come out of there, too.

This is a very stupid, ignorant post. Charging that much knowing they won't be able to deliver is robbing the students. They can close, or charge a lot less and be open about employment prospects - these are the only options for the school to actually maintain any semblance of integrity.
Dude, practically every LS charges 40k. Look at Touro. I think t-4's are great for people who are going to work for their family's firm or need a law degree to manage their business investments. I can even see it being useful for an actor/entertainer to have to protect themselves once established. I agree taking a TTT or even TT degree planning to support yourself in law without a family connection is very dumb. I think a school can charge however much it wants. I'm sure TJSL sugarcoats their employment stats, but how many t-1 law schools claim to have a 99% employment rate, not disclosing it is based on the sample of the survey, which is likely not a fair representation.

Really? I'm pretty sure we all realized that "But everyone else is doing it" was a poor argument by the time we were 6. It makes me cringe, *CRINGE* to say it, but, "If everyone jumped off a bridge..." I mean, the argument you are using is dismissed as poor logic so often that the counter argument refuting it is a cliche...

I mean is your point is that lots of schools are ripping people off, so its okay to go to a school that rips you off?

[robotclubmember]

Somebody told me a story about their cousin who went to Cooley and owns several 100k sports cars, and their other cousin who went to NYU, and is unemployed so it's possible to make money coming from TJSL. However, I'm tempted to think if this guy used TJSL to become a millionaire, he probably didn't need a law degree to make money in the first place. I'd realistically assess what your skill set is (go with your gut and 3rd person objective opinions), and assess whether you can make it big on your own, because nobody at any firm is going to help you get there when you graduate.

Cool story. Because I have heard a story on the internet about a friend's cousin, I have changed my opinion on TJSL.

Even if it's true, anecdotal evidence doesn't negate trends. One exception doesn't unprove a rule. A sleazy guy in my hometown is a millionaire after opening a bunch of carwashes. A graduate at Harvard may make $50K a year doing PI work. Does that mean we should all drop out of school and open carwashes?

And not all LS's charge 40k. Lots of state school charge way less. Here in Cleveland, Cleveland State charges $11K a year. I wouldn't go there but it's a way better school than TJSL. There is no excuse for that school to charge what it does.

Maybe other school fudge numbers and rip off their students. But TJSL and Cooley are in a different league. They use fake rankings, fake employment data, and deceptive marketing to lure students into a huge financial commitment that is generally overwhelming. 95% of TJSL leave the place with over $130K in debt. Think about that and try to tell me this TTTT isn't a rip-off.

[Grizz]

I think t-4's are great for people who are going to work for their family's firm or need a law degree to manage their business investments. I can even see it being useful for an actor/entertainer to have to protect themselves once established.

lol wut law school doesn't teach you how to do any of this

[flexityflex86]

Somebody told me a story about their cousin who went to Cooley and owns several 100k sports cars, and their other cousin who went to NYU, and is unemployed so it's possible to make money coming from TJSL. However, I'm tempted to think if this guy used TJSL to become a millionaire, he probably didn't need a law degree to make money in the first place. I'd realistically assess what your skill set is (go with your gut and 3rd person objective opinions), and assess whether you can make it big on your own, because nobody at any firm is going to help you get there when you graduate.

Cool story. Because I have heard a story on the internet about a friend's cousin, I have changed my opinion on TJSL.

Even if it's true, anecdotal evidence doesn't negate trends. One exception doesn't unprove a rule. A sleazy guy in my hometown is a millionaire after opening a bunch of carwashes. A graduate at Harvard may make $50K a year doing PI work. Does that mean we should all drop out of school and open carwashes?

And not all LS's charge 40k. Lots of state school charge way less. Here in Cleveland, Cleveland State charges $11K a year. I wouldn't go there but it's a way better school than TJSL. There is no excuse for that school to charge what it does.

Maybe other school fudge numbers and rip off their students. But TJSL and Cooley are in a different league. They use fake rankings, fake employment data, and deceptive marketing to lure students into a huge financial commitment that is generally overwhelming. 95% of TJSL leave the place with over $130K in debt. Think about that and try to tell me this TTTT isn't a rip-off.

Is it really 95% with 6 figure debt? That's a big price to get to tell women you're an attorney, which I'd imagine is the only plus of going to TJSL lol.

I know as much about law school stuff as the average TLS user, and always offer info to friends/people I meet that I precede with my opinion. Everyone who has a score in the 140s asks what I think about Cooley, and I'm always coming up with new ways to tell them they're an idiot without being crazy.

But if you have that great hard working street smart charismatic personality, you might be able to succeed coming out of one of these crappy schools. I very much think there's a "type" that will succeed regardless - winners without the testing aptitude of most winners, a certain type of grit. But these people are more rare than the 2.3 percent who break a 170.

[DoubleChecks]

so much fail mixed with so much win ITT

re-emphasizing some points already made in TL;DR fashion:

1) all about probabilities...ppl are not saying NO ONE succeeds coming out of bad law schools, just BAD ODDS -- not everyone dies from rabies, but odds are you're screwed if you get it (and do not get the vaccine)

2) anecdotal evidence is almost like no evidence

3) win comments in here are about generalities...if you have a rich father who owns a business and he says, "i will hand you 1337 job and cashez if you get lawl degree from anywherez" then go for it...feel free to change details in my example, but of course there are special circumstances where going to ANY law school at ANY price COULD potentially make sense...99% of the time it is not the case (re: probability point mentioned at #1)

4) there are too many law schools/law graduates every yr when compared to the number of spots available...+ how most schools misrepresent their employment data and charge a shitton of cash + easy student federal loans + debt mentality + bad economy = lose

[robotclubmember]

Charlie Sheen may have been right when he called Thomas Jefferson a pussy, but as big of a pussy he was, he would have gone berserker and absolutely rage-stomped the goons who built that TTTT if he knew what they were doing to his name. This thread has nothing further to contribute to my life.

[rman1201]

Charlie Sheen may have been right when he called Thomas Jefferson a pussy, but as big of a pussy he was, he would have gone berserker and absolutely rage-stomped the goons who built that TTTT if he knew what they were doing to his name. This thread has nothing further to contribute to my life.

The only school that should be associated with Thomas Jefferson is UVa, because he founded it.

[flexityflex86]

Charlie Sheen may have been right when he called Thomas Jefferson a pussy, but as big of a pussy he was, he would have gone berserker and absolutely rage-stomped the goons who built that TTTT if he knew what they were doing to his name. This thread has nothing further to contribute to my life.

LOL. Is UVA pissed? I'm sure they don't care, but why can they use Thomas Jefferson? What claim do they have to that? When did TJ go to San Diego? It makes more sense to call it Ron Burgundy School of Law, which is a law school I'd sign up for.

[rose711]

I think t-4's are great for people who are going to work for their family's firm or need a law degree to manage their business investments. I can even see it being useful for an actor/entertainer to have to protect themselves once established.

lol wut law school doesn't teach you how to do any of this

If only it did.

[flexityflex86]

Obviously coming from TJSL is not good, but I've never spoken with an extremely successful lawyer who was not sharp, professional, in control of their statements and came off as street smart, responsible, respectable and trustworthy. I would just argue that people who possess such traits may have been more likely to do the college work and LSAT prep necessary to gain entry into top law schools, which certainly help. But there are exceptions. What tends to happen, though I feel like is people "just feel like they should be a lawyer," "believe in getting lucky," "think they're like Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men," and go to schools that require being a 1%er to succeed, and fail. They're called the irresponsible people who raise our taxes.

[molawn]

You'd be better off taking that 40k down to the casino and putting it all on black than you would going to any law school

Fixed.

Almost everyone in law school, applying, graduated, practicing should be considering a career change. So I don't think you're making much of a point. If law school requires you to finish at the top of your class anyway, at least to have a fighting chance at paying back law school loans, it's absurd to say that transferring is not a good idea because it is unlikely the applicant will be in the top. If you're screwed from the beginning, it's silly to suggest there is a better fourth tier choice.

The only solution to OP's query is to abandon law school, retake the lsat or transfer. Retaking the LSAT and obtaining a significantly higher score is as statistically abysmal as transferring. And with that GPA, it had better be great. On the other hand, a well planned transfer can at least give the player more control because he can choose his competition.

You don't really know what you are talking about do you?

You would NOT be better off betting all your money at a casino than you would going to Harvard. Or even a respectable T2. Your "fixed" statement equates TJSL to Harvard. This is an egregious logic error which exposes you as a fool. If you go to a respectable law school you are not required to be at the top of your class though it is certainly advantageous.

I don't think you understand what is really wrong with TJSL. They are a terrible value as far as law schools go. They cripple their students with unmanageable debt at a level that no other school in the nation does. And almost every other school in the nation leaves you with better career prospects. TJSL is a huge risk because even one year there leaves you $40K+ in the hole, and they don't give out financial aid. A school of such low quality shouldn't be able to do that with a straight face. So what is it about TJSL that makes it more expensive than Harvard, than anywhere else? Is it the high quality legal education? The job prospects? I have no clue. I imagine the campus has a lot to do with it, lol. If the plan is to transfer, OP should go to the cheapest school he can. Not the school that leads the nation in costs to its students. THAT is EXACTLY like betting 40K at the casino. Romo was spot on. No well-planned transfer starts with the most expensive school in the country.

If I equated TJSL to Harvard why would I bother advocating transferring as an option? Your failure to recognize hyperbole exposes you, friend.

With that said, if TJSL is an extraordinarily bad risk, I'm sorry to offend you if I incidentally endorsed it. I just hope we could both move on with our lives now.

[Nicholasnickynic]

Charlie Sheen may have been right when he called Thomas Jefferson a pussy, but as big of a pussy he was, he would have gone berserker and absolutely rage-stomped the goons who built that TTTT if he knew what they were doing to his name. This thread has nothing further to contribute to my life.

LOL. Is UVA pissed? I'm sure they don't care, but why can they use Thomas Jefferson? What claim do they have to that? When did TJ go to San Diego? It makes more sense to call it Ron Burgundy School of Law, which is a law school I'd sign up for.

I don't think TJ could have gone to San Diego... Just Mexico

[romothesavior]

I can't tell if molawn, flexityflex, or craplicant is the worst poster in this thread. Most threads like this have one or two clueless TTTT apologists. We've got three. The jackpot of fail.

[rman1201]

I can't tell if molawn, flexityflex, or craplicant is the worst poster in this thread. Most threads like this have one or two clueless TTTT apologists. We've got three. The jackpot of fail.

I've been under the assumption they're all the same person. They all joined the same week and post roughly the same garbage.

[thedive]

I'm not even going to a T1 myself, but would honestly feel better taking out 100k in loans and going to Vegas than I would going to TJ.