Top Law Schools

Spent a good part of the night last night reading the overwhelming amount of information on this site, blogs, articles, etc. on how law school is a scam, no one is getting jobs, the overabundance if lawyers and debt load of the graduates...why do I still want to go to law school?!?

The top ranked school I got into I got no $$$ so I would be looking at at least 100k in debt upon graduation. I guess my personal experience does not reflect what I am reading online and I am not sure how much weight to put on what I am reading. I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt. I am wondering if the bitter, unemployed people graduating law schools and blogging online are the product of a society where they think that sending out emails to prospective jobs is all they need to do? That networking is posting on Facebook? If they are spoiled, entitled kids who never really had to work hard at anything? I am a little bit older and of the mindset that if you want something, you have to work your ass off and get it.

I may be way off base, but I want to make an informed decision about this. Maybe I am just overconfident but I have never had a problem getting jobs - I will be leaving a job making 75k/year to go to law school. I have always wanted to go to LS and will be going into the PI field or government, not looking at big law.

retake

Perhaps I should retake this post? Maybe I'll get the chance when I'm unbanned.

<3

MGMT

Go to law school especially if you are not seeking biglaw & have an entrepreneurial mindset.

123hope wrote:I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt.

I know 3 people who won the lottery. It's now my plan for retirement.

123hope wrote:I am wondering if the bitter, unemployed people graduating law schools and blogging online are the product of a society where they think that sending out emails to prospective jobs is all they need to do? That networking is posting on Facebook? If they are spoiled, entitled kids who never really had to work hard at anything? I am a little bit older and of the mindset that if you want something, you have to work your ass off and get it.

Yes, you are a special, special snowflake, and correct, those who can't find employment in the worst economic downturn since the depression just weren't willing to hustle or work hard for it.

123hope wrote:I may be way off base, but I want to make an informed decision about this.

Perhaps you should pay attention to the 'overwhelming amount of information on this site,' then.

123hope wrote:Maybe I am just overconfident but I have never had a problem getting jobs - I will be leaving a job making 75k/year to go to law school. I have always wanted to go to LS and will be going into the PI field or government, not looking at big law.

You want to ditch 75K a year, get in six figures of debt, and in return get a PI or govt salary? You'll never make 75K in PI, and you won't get hired by govt 'cause they're all broke and have hiring freezes.

123hope wrote:Spent a good part of the night last night reading the overwhelming amount of information on this site, blogs, articles, etc. on how law school is a scam, no one is getting jobs, the overabundance if lawyers and debt load of the graduates...why do I still want to go to law school?!?

The top ranked school I got into I got no $$$ so I would be looking at at least 100k in debt upon graduation. I guess my personal experience does not reflect what I am reading online and I am not sure how much weight to put on what I am reading. I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt. I am wondering if the bitter, unemployed people graduating law schools and blogging online are the product of a society where they think that sending out emails to prospective jobs is all they need to do? That networking is posting on Facebook? If they are spoiled, entitled kids who never really had to work hard at anything? I am a little bit older and of the mindset that if you want something, you have to work your ass off and get it.

I may be way off base, but I want to make an informed decision about this. Maybe I am just overconfident but I have never had a problem getting jobs - I will be leaving a job making 75k/year to go to law school. I have always wanted to go to LS and will be going into the PI field or government, not looking at big law.

Most of the sites (JDU, scamblogs) are going to be heavily biased against law schools - largely populated by those who've failed and have lots of free time on their hands. Not quite representative of every law school grad's fate.

TLS seems to mostly be pessimistic/realistic law students - most pessimism/realism is backed by somewhat gloomy (but accurate) statistics. The TL;DR for all of TLS is probably:
Buyer Beware - most schools put out misleading employment figures and you cant accurately gauge anything by reported medians.
LS is a lot of debt, but it can be worth it if
1) You REALLY want to be a lawyer
2) The school can actually get you a job (a top school in the market, whatever that market may be - lower ranks acceptable in small markets)
3) The job can help you pay off the debt (a school that places well into PI/Gov't for LRAP, a school that places well into biglaw if you plan on going at sticker, or a school with minimal debt if its placement is more 'meh').

sundance95 wrote:

123hope wrote:I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt.

I know 3 people who won the lottery. It's now my plan for retirement.

No you don't.

123hope wrote: I am wondering if the bitter, unemployed people graduating law schools and blogging online are the product of a society where they think that sending out emails to prospective jobs is all they need to do? That networking is posting on Facebook? If they are spoiled, entitled kids who never really had to work hard at anything?

Well this took a nasty turn. I assume you've seen the evidence presented (low placement rates, low non-biglaw salaries, oversaturated legal market, crushing debt for a long time, the structural shift in how much which law school you attend matters that has happened since your examples went to law school, etc.) as to why law is probably a losing choice, especially if you go to some shithole. If you want to choose to ignore that and say it's all just blathering by some lazy children who don't have the same dedication and life experience as you, I hope you are comfortable with the chance that you'll spend the rest of your life as a doc-review debt peon.

All I can say is, very poor flame. If not, knock yourself out and become a debt slave for the rest of your life.

sanjola wrote:

sundance95 wrote:

123hope wrote:I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt.

I know 3 people who won the lottery. It's now my plan for retirement.

No you don't.

I was merely pointing out the problem with relying upon anecdotal evidence in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence. I'm sure I could come up with a more plausible scenario if I cared enough.

I think i need to stop looking at TSL. I made a commitment to Notre Dame at about 100K total for three years. Reading the posts on this site has made me really think about if this is a good investment. However, two very good friends (one at a t30 and one at a T1) have both graduated and both LOVE their jobs. The one at the T30 is a prosecutor and the one at the T1 makes great money. I know the conventual wisdom on this site is t14 or bust but i'm not sure this is reality. I believe (hope) if you go to a t1 and network properly you will be fine. I just have a hard time believing a JD from Notre Dame will leave me on the streets.

I am wondering if the bitter, unemployed people graduating law schools and blogging online are the product of a society where they think that sending out emails to prospective jobs is all they need to do? That networking is posting on Facebook? If they are spoiled, entitled kids who never really had to work hard at anything?

I think you got it...most of the clueless, mollycoddled pubic lice on this site have no real world experience and base their physcial lives on established codes and standards, ignoring the vast exceptions that exist. It has some merit, but for the hustlers, it means nothing.

I am a little bit older and of the mindset that if you want something, you have to work your ass off and get it

truest words ever spoken...

rahimali wrote:

I am a little bit older and of the mindset that if you want something, you have to work your ass off and get it

truest words ever spoken...

IBBootstraps-derail

If you reallly want to be a lawyer, and you've done your research then go to law school. Understand that you are walking away from a nice salary. However, you know better than anyone else if the job you currently have is something you like, or if the paycheck is the only thing keeping you from turning in your 2 weeks notice. If you really want to go to law school- go. Understand the risks and the costs, and go to the best school you can for the market you want to work in. If you are still on the fence, wait a year and re assess your goals and situtation. You have to work hard at not only getting good grades, but at looking for employment. You can only rely on yourself, not a a career center, or anyhting else. That being said, tHere is nothing wrong with having everything ready, and waiting a year just to make sure.
best of luck with whateve it is you want to do.

"Hustlers" is the biggest bullshit word I see thrown around TLS.

sundance95 wrote:

sanjola wrote:

sundance95 wrote:

123hope wrote:I know 3 people who graduated from a T2 law school last year, all of them got really good jobs. Also I know 2 people who graduated from TTTT schools (Golden Gate and Cal Western) and they make a ton of money. All of them are encouraging me to go to LS, regardless of debt.

I know 3 people who won the lottery. It's now my plan for retirement.

No you don't.

I was merely pointing out the problem with relying upon anecdotal evidence in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence. I'm sure I could come up with a more plausible scenario if I cared enough.

That is exactly what I am talking about - where is the statistical evidence? Every law school I was accepted to is claiming over 90% employed after 9 months. I understand what law schools do to inflate their numbers and using inaccurate data, but why I should believe 15 blogs and a NYT article (and it's no wonder that douche in the article did not have a job) as a better representation over people that I know personally and that are encouraging me to go to law school.

northwood wrote:If you reallly want to be a lawyer, and you've done your research then go to law school. Understand that you are walking away from a nice salary. However, you know better than anyone else if the job you currently have is something you like, or if the paycheck is the only thing keeping you from turning in your 2 weeks notice. If you really want to go to law school- go. Understand the risks and the costs, and go to the best school you can for the market you want to work in. If you are still on the fence, wait a year and re assess your goals and situtation. You have to work hard at not only getting good grades, but at looking for employment. You can only rely on yourself, not a a career center, or anyhting else. That being said, tHere is nothing wrong with having everything ready, and waiting a year just to make sure.
best of luck with whateve it is you want to do.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.
And yes, I hate my job.

123hope wrote:

sundance95 wrote:

sanjola wrote:

sundance95 wrote: No you don't.

I was merely pointing out the problem with relying upon anecdotal evidence in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence. I'm sure I could come up with a more plausible scenario if I cared enough.

That is exactly what I am talking about - where is the statistical evidence? Every law school I was accepted to is claiming over 90% employed after 9 months. I understand what law schools do to inflate their numbers and using inaccurate data, but why I should believe 15 blogs and a NYT article (and it's no wonder that douche in the article did not have a job) as a better representation over people that I know personally and that are encouraging me to go to law school.

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ - that will break down reported numbers

Let's look at the Golden Gate numbers since you know someone who went there. They give you a 90% employment rate and a median salary of 80k. We notice that only 20% of students gave salary statistics which gave us the median of 80k. Considering it is widely documented that those who report salaries are almost always those with the top salaries. It's safe to say that about 10% of the class is making 80k or more, 15% making 62k or more, and 5% reported being employed with less than 62k salaries. The vast majority of the rest that are counted as employed are likely not working in the legal industry, have extremely small salaries, or are doing hourly document review work. Bear in mind this was when the legal hiring was BETTER than it is now. So, if you want about a 5-10% chance of making what you do now, you'd go to a school like Golden Gate.


You can also find the NLJ stats on here, which will be representative of all jobs paying 6 figures.

I spent 3 seconds looking at your OP. I saw the words TTT. Unless you absolutely have a job lined up at graduation or if you are going for completely free, yes I would say are crazy if you choose to enroll.

This is pre-recession:
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

50% of those enrolling at Golden Gate either drop out or are unemployed.

rman1201 wrote:This is pre-recession:
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

50% of those enrolling at Golden Gate either drop out or are unemployed.

and the other half is drowning in debt. but they have a JD!!!!!

123hope wrote:
That is exactly what I am talking about - where is the statistical evidence? Every law school I was accepted to is claiming over 90% employed after 9 months. I understand what law schools do to inflate their numbers and using inaccurate data, but why I should believe 15 blogs and a NYT article (and it's no wonder that douche in the article did not have a job) as a better representation over people that I know personally and that are encouraging me to go to law school.

You do know that 'employed' only means with a job, not with a LAW RELATED job, right? If you get a job after graduation at McDonalds, they count you as 'employed' in that statistic. You have to dig for the employed in the LEGAL FIELD number. It's usually quite a bit lower.

gwuorbust wrote:I spent 3 seconds looking at your OP. I saw the words TTT. Unless you absolutely have a job lined up at graduation or if you are going for completely free, yes I would say are crazy if you choose to enroll.

The top school I got into that I plan on going to is not a TTT - its in the 50-60 range (T2). I got into a few other schools with $ including an almost all tuition scholarship at a TTT.

123hope wrote:

gwuorbust wrote:I spent 3 seconds looking at your OP. I saw the words TTT. Unless you absolutely have a job lined up at graduation or if you are going for completely free, yes I would say are crazy if you choose to enroll.

The top school I got into that I plan on going to is not a TTT - its in the 50-60 range (T2). I got into a few other schools with $ including an almost all tuition scholarship at a TTT.

1. what stipulations come with those scholarships?
2. if you retake, do you think you can score higher?
3. if you do not attend law school, is there any meaningful career path you could otherwise pursue?

first, I would look into what the prospects are for PI and gov't for the T3 that offered a full ride. Also, any chance you could go part time, while still making that 75K?

gwuorbust wrote:

123hope wrote:

gwuorbust wrote:I spent 3 seconds looking at your OP. I saw the words TTT. Unless you absolutely have a job lined up at graduation or if you are going for completely free, yes I would say are crazy if you choose to enroll.

The top school I got into that I plan on going to is not a TTT - its in the 50-60 range (T2). I got into a few other schools with $ including an almost all tuition scholarship at a TTT.

1. what stipulations come with those scholarships?
2. if you retake, do you think you can score higher?
3. if you do not attend law school, is there any meaningful career path you could otherwise pursue?

just saw the 75k tid-bit. Yes, you WOULD BE CRAZY to leave a job paying 75k, gather debt, and then maybe, maybe be able to make 50k a year. that really wouldn't be the best life decision.