How can I overcome my TERRIBLE GPA? Forum

[Kabuo]

Also, OP, I am/was by no means professional, just marginal success (~10k) in donkaments my sophomore year on stars, and I considered writing a PS about poker, mostly about the insane discipline bankroll management takes and how it could translate to success in law school or something. I think it would have been a lot more compelling than the PS I ultimately did write, because I think my cycle is slightly underachieving so far based on my numbers, but I was ultimately dissuaded from writing it by some posters on this forum. Provided that you are not playing in a state where it's illegal and reported your winnings, I say go for it if you think you can make it into a good narrative. What an above poster said about poker players being looked down on by some people is certainly true, but I think you stand at least a decent shot of standing out in a good way, which, coupled with a great LSAT might just overcome that GPA at an otherwise out of reach school.

I have no doubt that you can get a 170 plus with 3-4 months of intense, disciplined self-study. Read some of the guides on here, combine them in a way that you think will work best for your style of learning, and go kill the test. I would also consider throwing an app to Northwestern if you do manage a 170+. Just get creative trying to play up poker as being self-employed (especially playing up the working unsupervised and maximizing the bottom line), be willing to defend that in the interview, and maybe even get your backer to write that LOR for NW. I think they just might buy it, and if you get above a 170, you'll probably get a fee waiver from them, making it way +EV to at least try. And, since you mentioned SLU, just get a 168+ and you have a very realistic shot at WUSTL.

[gothamm]

Same here. I think many who have played their fair share of poker have thought of going pro, including myself. Unlike Kabuo, however, I would never ever mention poker in a personal statement. You have to remember your audience. I suppose maybe if your school is a super reach, you could do that and you may get lucky to have a couple of the school's adcomms be familiar with the dynamics of poker. If not, they will just focus on the fact that the applicant was a gambler (objectively not a good thing)

But as it stands, I would never mention poker or any other form of gambling on my application. Simply way too risky.

[bartleby]

Don't mention poker at all. Stop playing poker.

Most people are going to assume that because of your poker playing habit, you got a 2.5 GPA. I played poker my freshman year - not a grinder but a degenerate tilter - played $30/$60 limit - and went up $5000 one night to overall down $1500 the next. I have a solid 1.0 GPA to show for it my first year.

10k means nothing. You won 10k but you're going to be stuck with that GPA forever. If you are serious about law school, you need to treat the LSAT like the final table at Sunday's multi million's on Stars. It is similar. $150 buy-in and you'll need to win a few races but a great LSAT score is worth wayyyyyyyyyyyy more than 10k.

GL. I quit cold turkey after my freshman year in college. Best decision I ever made.

[Kabuo]

Just for the record, OP did not mention winning 10k. That was me. OP says he plays professionaly mid stakes at FTP, which I assume equates to significantly more than 10k per year, whereas I mentioned 10k overall. Not to mention that playing the way OP plays is almost an entirely different game than tilting at 30/60 limit, and not just because one of you is a winning player. It's totally different to grind SNGs than to casually play high limit cash. Which is all not to say that you aren't right about it hurting his GPA. I know one of the reasons I got a 3.2 is because I was dicking around thinking about trying be a semi-pro/pro my first 2 years of college. Main reason is I just didn't think grades were important because I was an idiot, so maybe I would have found a different distraction if not poker. Oh well.

I agree with the other posters about only mentioning the poker for reaches though. I just think that most schools worth going to will be reaches for you. For your safeties or w/e, any generic PS, academic LORs, and a respectable LSAT will do.

Not following the LSAT/Sunday Million analogy though, but I do think that some of the things that are necessary for grinding are also necessary for LSAT prep. Namely, focus, discipline, and adapting. I worked harder studying for the LSAT than I have on anything in my life (sad, I know), even if it was just for 4 months of real study, but it pays very good returns. 161 cold, and then a 172 in October, with a hopefully higher score coming from my retake in February.

OP, take or leave my poker PS/LOR advice, although I think you should take it for your reaches, but definitely browse the LSAT prep guides on this site and figure out one of them or a combination of them that will work best for you. Classes are, imo, for people who cannot motivate themselves to study. If you can motivate yourself, I think you give yourself a much higher ceiling through rigorous self study and TLS browsing than you do in any class. Not to mention it's cheaper. You can get all the LSAT prep materials you could possibly need for under $400. GL, whatever you decide to do.

[bartleby]

My bad.

Don't write about it at all.

[AnonGimick]

I'm posting as a gimick to be anonymous sorry if it comes off offensive

Generally if your asking yourself if you should write about poker, the answer is a resounding NO.

An abnormally large people who play poker think they are winners, I say abnormally large because it is more than the amount of actual winners. People in the poker community are able to identify actual winners now-a-days due to tracking sites (ptr, sharkscope, ect.) The problem is that law school admission staff probably don't troll 2p2 and have accounts at ptr (while this is an assumption, it seems more than reasonable.)

Kabuo, doing a quick search for someone else on the internet with the name "Kabuo" (doesn't necessarily have to be you) leads to a 2p2 account that started posting yesterday. and a Poker Stars account that is -2.5k in SnG's (sharkscope) and -4.4 in Cash (PTR)*

Now while that isn't confirmed to be you, that person would be well advised to not be writing a personal statement on poker.

So OP I would only write something if you feel a reasonable non-poker playing member of an admissions staff would be convinced enough by your personal statement to think that you in fact are a poker whiz kid.

*Due to either inaccuracies/timing that person a few years ago could very well have been up 10k

[Ty Webb]

OP: I had a 2.33 with a harsh, ugly downward trend (my last semester was a 1.39 and I had two classes yet to finish when I applied).

I got into a solid school that's strong in its still viable market (think SMU/UH).

It can be done. Prep like hell for the LSAT. My first semester law school GPA was almost twice as high as my undergrad GPA, so you can turn it around. FWIW, I believe the analytical ability gained by playing poker/doing high level sports betting can be helpful with both the LSAT and in law school. Training your mind to think two or three steps ahead is a huge advantage.

GOGOGOGOGOGOGO.

[rose711]

OP -just to reiterate: Do not write about poker no matter how compelling you think it is or how compelling you think it will be to other people. It isn't.

[helloperson]

Best way is to take a few years off to distance yourself from your GPA. Of course nothing's as good as an LSAT improvement.

FYI it is possible to dramatically increase your LSAT. My diag was 143, so my total increase was +31 (and I PTed a few 180s).

And definitely do not do the poker LOR. Only professors unless you take a few years off and work FT, then do one from your boss on top of those.

I am guessing most of your improvement came in the first week or two of study.

[cardsfan04]

I wouldn't really be selling myself as a poker whiz. Despite a really good 2009, especially at the start of the year, I had a really bad 2010. I make enough with rakeback and PokerPwnage (training site I work for) videos to play professionally, but I haven't crushed it like I used to.

Anyway, any mention of playing poker (and I haven't thought hard about it yet) would be for two purposes:

1. To show my work ethic when I made something a goal, as I am with getting a high LSAT score and will be in law school.

2. To explain why my GPA isn't my actual potential. There's no doubt it hurt my GPA. If I would have worked hard, I could have had a 4.0. It just wasn't a priority for me when I was in school, mainly because I was too stubborn to get out of my own way. I did however succeed where I attempted to succeed.

That is definitely how I would present it, but I get the taboo nature of it. The reason I lead toward discussing it is because the number one advice I hear on PS' is to be as honest as possible. I've been out of college for 3 years though, and only had a "legitimate" job for 9 months of that time. So, I can't really completely avoid it I don't think.

[Adjudicator]

How can I overcome my TERRIBLE GPA?

You can't.

However, a very high LSAT is the only factor that will even begin to make up for it. In the end, it will always hurt you, though. (Except maybe at WUSTL. lol)

I'm convinced of that, based on my own cycle so far.

[bartleby]

I wouldn't really be selling myself as a poker whiz. Despite a really good 2009, especially at the start of the year, I had a really bad 2010. I make enough with rakeback and PokerPwnage (training site I work for) videos to play professionally, but I haven't crushed it like I used to.

Anyway, any mention of playing poker (and I haven't thought hard about it yet) would be for two purposes:

1. To show my work ethic when I made something a goal, as I am with getting a high LSAT score and will be in law school.

2. To explain why my GPA isn't my actual potential. There's no doubt it hurt my GPA. If I would have worked hard, I could have had a 4.0. It just wasn't a priority for me when I was in school, mainly because I was too stubborn to get out of my own way. I did however succeed where I attempted to succeed.

That is definitely how I would present it, but I get the taboo nature of it. The reason I lead toward discussing it is
because the number one advice I hear on PS' is to be as honest as possible. I've been out of college for 3 years though, and only had a "legitimate" job for 9 months of that time. So, I can't really completely avoid it I don't think.

I don't mean to keep chiming in but I don't want to see an applicant get pwned. Do you know how ridiculous some of that stuff sounds? I know about the poker community and how dirty the poker grind is. But even for young people in TLS, this stuff sounds ridiculous. Rakeback? Poker PWNAGE??? Some old school dean of admissions will not see that as work ethic. It combines two terrible elements: gambling and unfamiliar technology. To see that you COULD HAVE gotten a 4.0 but didn't because you played poker is like shooting yourself in the foot. Multiple times.

No doubt, it is very clear poker plays a large role in your life. But others don't need to know that. And when you are in law school, you shouldn't play either, no matter what.

You are already at a huge disadvantage with the GPA. The rest of your application should be focused around a high LSAT score and not f-ing up anything else. To write a PS about poker would be doing that. I honestly think it would be better to write about how you wanted to be a lawyer since you were in the 5th grade then to try and convince a dean that your GPA coulda been higher and you have a good work ethic.

You don't have to take my advice. I am just a stranger on a forum. And maybe there is a chance that your LSAT score will be so good, they won't even look at your PS. But you're a gambler, and the pot odds are terrible here.

[FiveSermon]

I wouldn't really be selling myself as a poker whiz. Despite a really good 2009, especially at the start of the year, I had a really bad 2010. I make enough with rakeback and PokerPwnage (training site I work for) videos to play professionally, but I haven't crushed it like I used to.

Anyway, any mention of playing poker (and I haven't thought hard about it yet) would be for two purposes:

1. To show my work ethic when I made something a goal, as I am with getting a high LSAT score and will be in law school.

2. To explain why my GPA isn't my actual potential. There's no doubt it hurt my GPA. If I would have worked hard, I could have had a 4.0. It just wasn't a priority for me when I was in school, mainly because I was too stubborn to get out of my own way. I did however succeed where I attempted to succeed.

That is definitely how I would present it, but I get the taboo nature of it. The reason I lead toward discussing it is
because the number one advice I hear on PS' is to be as honest as possible. I've been out of college for 3 years though, and only had a "legitimate" job for 9 months of that time. So, I can't really completely avoid it I don't think.

I don't mean to keep chiming in but I don't want to see an applicant get pwned. Do you know how ridiculous some of that stuff sounds? I know about the poker community and how dirty the poker grind is. But even for young people in TLS, this stuff sounds ridiculous. Rakeback? Poker PWNAGE??? Some old school dean of admissions will not see that as work ethic. It combines two terrible elements: gambling and unfamiliar technology. To see that you COULD HAVE gotten a 4.0 but didn't because you played poker is like shooting yourself in the foot. Multiple times.

No doubt, it is very clear poker plays a large role in your life. But others don't need to know that. And when you are in law school, you shouldn't play either, no matter what.

You are already at a huge disadvantage with the GPA. The rest of your application should be focused around a high LSAT score and not f-ing up anything else. To write a PS about poker would be doing that. I honestly think it would be better to write about how you wanted to be a lawyer since you were in the 5th grade then to try and convince a dean that your GPA coulda been higher and you have a good work ethic.

You don't have to take my advice. I am just a stranger on a forum. And maybe there is a chance that your LSAT score will be so good, they won't even look at your PS. But you're a gambler, and the pot odds are terrible here.

+1

Would also like to add you come off as unbelievably arrogant. Everyone CAN have a better GPA unless you have a perfect GPA. Pointing out that you spent your time doing something else instead of studying and using this to show that you didn't achieve your full potential with regards to GPA is not only trivial but is a truism. No one cares.

[cardsfan04]

Fair enough. You guys might be right about avoiding poker. It just seems deceptive to ignore it completely. Furthermore, it will leave a 2 year gap in my resume. I would imagine a 2 year gap would arise suspicions as if I were trying to hide something, which is also damaging.

Lots of things I have said in here aren't how I would phrase things to an adcomm. I mean, I'm addressing a forum, not an adcomm, so I wasn't overly worried about phrasing things as I would on my PS. But, I'm not real keen on lying to them.

Sorry if I came off as arrogant. I'm not sure how I did, but it wasn't my intention. If it's because I said 4.0 instead of respectable, well sorry for offending you.

Anyway, I really appreciate the replies. Seems general consensus is kill the LSAT. Until I've done that, I don't need to rack my brain over how to confront poker, if at all.

[cardsfan04]

Also, it may be an overwhelmingly obvious decision to avoid poker in my PS. And, I hope that I haven't offended anybody by not instantly recognizing their advice as solid. It's a major decision for me, so I have to think about it. Hopefully I haven't come across as argumentative. It's not my intention. I'm just not ready to instantly make a decision on it.

[Kabuo]

I'm posting as a gimick to be anonymous sorry if it comes off offensive

Generally if your asking yourself if you should write about poker, the answer is a resounding NO.

An abnormally large people who play poker think they are winners, I say abnormally large because it is more than the amount of actual winners. People in the poker community are able to identify actual winners now-a-days due to tracking sites (ptr, sharkscope, ect.) The problem is that law school admission staff probably don't troll 2p2 and have accounts at ptr (while this is an assumption, it seems more than reasonable.)

Kabuo, doing a quick search for someone else on the internet with the name "Kabuo" (doesn't necessarily have to be you) leads to a 2p2 account that started posting yesterday. and a Poker Stars account that is -2.5k in SnG's (sharkscope) and -4.4 in Cash (PTR)*

Now while that isn't confirmed to be you, that person would be well advised to not be writing a personal statement on poker.

So OP I would only write something if you feel a reasonable non-poker playing member of an admissions staff would be convinced enough by your personal statement to think that you in fact are a poker whiz kid.

*Due to either inaccuracies/timing that person a few years ago could very well have been up 10k

This isn't about me, so I'm just going to address this in one paragraph. Yes, I am the Kabuo on stars you see on OPR. I did mention how hard bankroll management was in my posts (mainly because a quick look at my splits will reveal how much I struggled with it), and a quick look of my splits will show you almost 100% roi and 20k profit in $11 tournaments (mainly rebuys). You can also see how I'm 0/whatever in $530 shots, like -30% roi in $215s, and way down in 109s. Nevertheless, OPR will still show you 6k+ in total profit with R/A expenses included, which, due to my noobish tendencies typically undervalued my actual profit in R/As, because for awhile I didn't bother adding on. I know it was ~10k in 2008, because that's what I ended up reporting after going through all the bank transactions. I don't even remember my cash stats, but I can tell you I did lose $12k one night to some dick named Thorpie at 100/200 FL HU who cracked top set back to back hands (capped every street) and sent me into a tilty tailspin. Yes, I know this makes me nowhere near a pro. You'll notice I never called myself one. I said I dicked around with the idea my first 2 years of college. The bankroll management problems were enough to show me I did not have what it takes, and I mostly quit.

Back to the issue at hand, obviously almost every poster disagrees with me about how OP should handle this. Everyone agrees that he needs to rock the LSAT though, so I think he should probably get that out of the way and then reread peoples' objections to him sending in a poker themed application in light of his numbers. All I'm saying is that I had numbers to be competitive as an early decision applicant at Mich and definitely UVA, and got held and rejected, respectively. I'm pretty sure this is because I didn't write the PS I wanted to write about bankroll management teaching me discipline after wiping out my remaining roll at 100/200 limit. Most people I know, regardless of their age, seem to think that's a great story, and I think there's at least a chance OP could find a person like that in admissions and liven up his/her otherwise boring day with a much more successful poker narrative that shows how mature/hardworking he is. Obviously you wouldn't be saying "pwnage" or using technical terms and abbreviations in your PS. I still think that you have nothing to lose at your reaches, because they are not overlooking a 2.5 without a rocking addendum (which you can't give without it being the truth) and without a killer personal statement. And, if you can do both of these documents about poker, it will be a theme.

Lastly, OP mentioned SLU, so presumably he doesn't mind St. Louis. If OP can get a 168 or higher, he absolutely has a shot at WUSTL no matter what he writes his PS about. He even has a shot at like 1/3 tuition if they still give out their schollys in the same way when he applies. Deans like a theme, and I think some will like a poker themed app from OP.

And since OP has posted again since I started typing this, yes OP, it seems deceptive because it is. TLS is way risk averse regarding personal statements. 2 year gaps on resumes are bad. Just confront it imo, it was nothing bad, and they might like the story.

[fatduck]

Also, it may be an overwhelmingly obvious decision to avoid poker in my PS. And, I hope that I haven't offended anybody by not instantly recognizing their advice as solid. It's a major decision for me, so I have to think about it. Hopefully I haven't come across as argumentative. It's not my intention. I'm just not ready to instantly make a decision on it.

for some reason i thought you played professionally while in school, it didn't click to me that you were talking about a 2-year period post-graduation (although re-reading it's pretty obvious).

in that case, i think you do have to mention it. i wouldn't try to use it to excuse your poor gpa, but you do need to explain what you were doing for 2 years post-grad. not sure whether it would fit better as part of your PS or as an addendum.

also please make a bbv thread asking for advice on how to list "pro poker player" on your resume

[alexb]

It's a PERSONAL statement. If poker, some how, influenced your decision to go to law school and you have no other, better reasons, write about it. That said, to overcome your GPA, increase your LSAT.

[HugerThanSoup]

I'm posting as a gimick to be anonymous sorry if it comes off offensive

Generally if your asking yourself if you should write about poker, the answer is a resounding NO.

An abnormally large people who play poker think they are winners, I say abnormally large because it is more than the amount of actual winners. People in the poker community are able to identify actual winners now-a-days due to tracking sites (ptr, sharkscope, ect.) The problem is that law school admission staff probably don't troll 2p2 and have accounts at ptr (while this is an assumption, it seems more than reasonable.)

Kabuo, doing a quick search for someone else on the internet with the name "Kabuo" (doesn't necessarily have to be you) leads to a 2p2 account that started posting yesterday. and a Poker Stars account that is -2.5k in SnG's (sharkscope) and -4.4 in Cash (PTR)*

Now while that isn't confirmed to be you, that person would be well advised to not be writing a personal statement on poker.

So OP I would only write something if you feel a reasonable non-poker playing member of an admissions staff would be convinced enough by your personal statement to think that you in fact are a poker whiz kid.

*Due to either inaccuracies/timing that person a few years ago could very well have been up 10k

This isn't about me, so I'm just going to address this in one paragraph. Yes, I am the Kabuo on stars you see on OPR. I did mention how hard bankroll management was in my posts (mainly because a quick look at my splits will reveal how much I struggled with it), and a quick look of my splits will show you almost 100% roi and 20k profit in $11 tournaments (mainly rebuys). You can also see how I'm 0/whatever in $530 shots, like -30% roi in $215s, and way down in 109s. Nevertheless, OPR will still show you 6k+ in total profit with R/A expenses included, which, due to my noobish tendencies typically undervalued my actual profit in R/As, because for awhile I didn't bother adding on. I know it was ~10k in 2008, because that's what I ended up reporting after going through all the bank transactions. I don't even remember my cash stats, but I can tell you I did lose $12k one night to some dick named Thorpie at 100/200 FL HU who cracked top set back to back hands (capped every street) and sent me into a tilty tailspin. Yes, I know this makes me nowhere near a pro. You'll notice I never called myself one. I said I dicked around with the idea my first 2 years of college. The bankroll management problems were enough to show me I did not have what it takes, and I mostly quit.

Back to the issue at hand, obviously almost every poster disagrees with me about how OP should handle this. Everyone agrees that he needs to rock the LSAT though, so I think he should probably get that out of the way and then reread peoples' objections to him sending in a poker themed application in light of his numbers. All I'm saying is that I had numbers to be competitive as an early decision applicant at Mich and definitely UVA, and got held and rejected, respectively. I'm pretty sure this is because I didn't write the PS I wanted to write about bankroll management teaching me discipline after wiping out my remaining roll at 100/200 limit. Most people I know, regardless of their age, seem to think that's a great story, and I think there's at least a chance OP could find a person like that in admissions and liven up his/her otherwise boring day with a much more successful poker narrative that shows how mature/hardworking he is. Obviously you wouldn't be saying "pwnage" or using technical terms and abbreviations in your PS. I still think that you have nothing to lose at your reaches, because they are not overlooking a 2.5 without a rocking addendum (which you can't give without it being the truth) and without a killer personal statement. And, if you can do both of these documents about poker, it will be a theme.

Lastly, OP mentioned SLU, so presumably he doesn't mind St. Louis. If OP can get a 168 or higher, he absolutely has a shot at WUSTL no matter what he writes his PS about. He even has a shot at like 1/3 tuition if they still give out their schollys in the same way when he applies. Deans like a theme, and I think some will like a poker themed app from OP.

And since OP has posted again since I started typing this, yes OP, it seems deceptive because it is. TLS is way risk averse regarding personal statements. 2 year gaps on resumes are bad. Just confront it imo, it was nothing bad, and they might like the story.

I think that this is good advice. Honestly, I'm still not sold on the poker PS, but a two year gap is going to be hard to explain away without addressing poker and a properly worded PS might just do the trick. Once you get the LSAT out of the way, you should give the PS a shot and use TLS as a sounding board. People on here may not think that poker is a suitable topic, in the abstract, but something that is well-written and compelling might change a mind or two (my own, included). In the end, it's your application.

FWIW, I wrote 4-5 different PSs before finally settling on the one that I submitted. I also had my family and friends read through them all to give advice on which ones were good, and to give edits on the final submission. I think the whole process resulted in a better product than what I could have come up with on my own.

[DarkPhantom]

What if OP went back for a post-bachelor's degree?

[gothamm]

It's a PERSONAL statement. If poker, some how, influenced your decision to go to law school and you have no other, better reasons, write about it. That said, to overcome your GPA, increase your LSAT.

No.

[bk1]

It's a PERSONAL statement. If poker, some how, influenced your decision to go to law school and you have no other, better reasons, write about it. That said, to overcome your GPA, increase your LSAT.

If I was racist and wanted to see the institution of slavery returned and thus decided because of that to go to law school, I should write about my racism?

No, of course not. The point of a personal statement is to get you in to law school, therefore from a utilitarian point of view you should write what will best help your chances. Poker is rarely, if ever, one of the things that will help your chances.

[fatduck]

I think mentioning that you played poker professionally for 2 years is better than saying/implying that you were unemployed and unoccupied for 2 years.

[Adjudicator]

Anybody who ever believes that "Honesty is the Best Policy" is naive.

(And has obviously never been married.)

[bartleby]

I think mentioning that you played poker professionally for 2 years is better than saying/implying that you were unemployed and unoccupied for 2 years.

Lie and say you were taking care of your sick grandparent/parent/child.