The Struggle of Law School Graduates in a Difficult Job Mark Forum

[robotclubmember]

These articles are actually not helpful at all because they are so easy for prospective students to write off. Journalists should be spending more time on the T1 and T2 grads (like that WSJ article on the unemployed NW students) so that maybe the point gets drilled home a little better. But I doubt it would even help.

I agree. The problem with journalists is that they are out of touch with the reality of the situation so they unwittingly pick the most unsympathetic subjects to write about. I'm not interested in Mike Wallerstein, who took out loans to go on vacation in Europe, and now is whining that his Thomas Jefferson degree wasn't worth shit when he took it to NYC. He's a victim of his own stupidity, nothing more.

Our generation has been raised to believe that education is the answer. Well, it isn't for everyone. Not everyone should go to college. Many would have been better off had they just started working out of high school. No one wants to come out and say "hey, maybe this woman in this article should never have gone to college, period." Not EVERYONE can be MVP, ya know? It's just reality, it's just math.

[bearmarketblues]

Screw off dude. You're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe you think practicing law is boring, and maybe for you it is or will be. But there are many, many, MANY lawyers out there who love the work they do. You wanna tell everyone the legal market sucks? Fine. But insulting people who have a genuine interest in legal work isn't helpful at all.

I've been admitted to NY bar for six years pal, and have yet to come across anything about law even remotely "interesting," or a single lawyer who "loves" what they do. Most everyone I know doesn't just hate but downright despise everything about it. Sorry, but Boston Legal is a TV show, not reality.

Here's an assignment: go find the warranty that came with your toaster, coffee pot, or TV set. Read the entire thing through, and ask yourself if you'd like to spend 60+ hours a week for the next 40 years doing that for a living (provided you can even find paying legal work, which is unlikely given the market).

We'll see in a few short years how many of you are on JDU wishing you'd listened to us. Unlike here, EVERYONE on that board is an admitted attorney or well into the law school scam (3 Ls and such). Spending some time would give you all a healthy dose of reality.

[Miracle]

I know this has largely been said.... but if you look at her LinkedIn profile, she spent 4 years in community college to get an AA in 'Transfer Studies,' is NA, according to others had a 3.0 in biochemistry, (which I didn't see anywhere, but even so it means that she either did fairly poorly in community college or really tanked her degree classes at UCSD) and ended up going to Thomas Jefferson. Purely speculative, but something must be wrong beyond just the school (not to say that a T4 is a safe investment in one's future by any means).

she didn't have to go to T4 if she had great LSAT. In short, clearly there is more to this story.

[robotclubmember]

Screw off dude. You're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe you think practicing law is boring, and maybe for you it is or will be. But there are many, many, MANY lawyers out there who love the work they do. You wanna tell everyone the legal market sucks? Fine. But insulting people who have a genuine interest in legal work isn't helpful at all.

I've been admitted to NY bar for six years pal, and have yet to come across anything about law even remotely "interesting," or a single lawyer who "loves" what they do. Most everyone I know doesn't just hate but downright despise everything about it. Sorry, but Boston Legal is a TV show, not reality.

Here's an assignment: go find the warranty that came with your toaster, coffee pot, or TV set. Read the entire thing through, and ask yourself if you'd like to spend 60+ hours a week for the next 40 years doing that for a living (provided you can even find paying legal work, which is unlikely given the market).

We'll see in a few short years how many of you are on JDU wishing you'd listened to us. Unlike here, EVERYONE on that board is an admitted attorney or well into the law school scam (3 Ls and such). Spending some time would give you all a healthy dose of reality.

you've got my attention, now tell me more.

[stratocophic]

Screw off dude. You're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe you think practicing law is boring, and maybe for you it is or will be. But there are many, many, MANY lawyers out there who love the work they do. You wanna tell everyone the legal market sucks? Fine. But insulting people who have a genuine interest in legal work isn't helpful at all.

I've been admitted to NY bar for six years pal, and have yet to come across anything about law even remotely "interesting," or a single lawyer who "loves" what they do. Most everyone I know doesn't just hate but downright despise everything about it. Sorry, but Boston Legal is a TV show, not reality.

Here's an assignment: go find the warranty that came with your toaster, coffee pot, or TV set. Read the entire thing through, and ask yourself if you'd like to spend 60+ hours a week for the next 40 years doing that for a living (provided you can even find paying legal work, which is unlikely given the market).

We'll see in a few short years how many of you are on JDU wishing you'd listened to us. Unlike here, EVERYONE on that board is an admitted attorney or well into the law school scam (3 Ls and such). Spending some time would give you all a healthy dose of reality.

Sounds like you picked the wrong practice area. Probably should've known BIGTOASTERS was going nowhere around the time toaster ovens started catching on

[prezidentv8]

Sorry, but Boston Legal is a TV show, not reality.

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[Miracle]

These articles are actually not helpful at all because they are so easy for prospective students to write off. Journalists should be spending more time on the T1 and T2 grads (like that WSJ article on the unemployed NW students) so that maybe the point gets drilled home a little better. But I doubt it would even help.

I agree. The problem with journalists is that they are out of touch with the reality of the situation so they unwittingly pick the most unsympathetic subjects to write about. I'm not interested in Mike Wallerstein, who took out loans to go on vacation in Europe, and now is whining that his Thomas Jefferson degree wasn't worth shit when he took it to NYC. He's a victim of his own stupidity, nothing more.

Our generation has been raised to believe that education is the answer. Well, it isn't for everyone. Not everyone should go to college. Many would have been better off had they just started working out of high school. No one wants to come out and say "hey, maybe this woman in this article should never have gone to college, period." Not EVERYONE can be MVP, ya know? It's just reality, it's just math.

+1

[bearmarketblues]

This says it all:

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Don't lose hope though- you can always go solo:

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[KibblesAndVick]

This says it all:

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"Remember those days? The boundless excitement at joining an “elite” profession, envisioning oneself captivating jurors with soaring oratory and seating “surprise’ witnesses like Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird? Or maybe flexing those legal muscles as a powerful DA a la Jack McCoy, cruising around crime scenes and picking up spent shell casings with a pencil tip? Sending rapists and murdering scum up the river and then meeting “the boys” for a well-earned victory beer before firing up the Ferrari to head home?"

No, I don't remember those days.

[tome]

She didn't start looking for a job until after she passed the bar exam. WTF did she expect? Fuck me, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I understand that they probably dont attract the cream of the crop at TJ, but you'd think even a drooling idiot could grasp the very basics of the legal job market.

[romothesavior]

The days when being sworn in as an attorney automatically yielded a dependable source of income are over.

lol @ this line

They were over decades ago.

[robotclubmember]

This says it all:

--LinkRemoved--

"Remember those days? The boundless excitement at joining an “elite” profession, envisioning oneself captivating jurors with soaring oratory and seating “surprise’ witnesses like Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird? Or maybe flexing those legal muscles as a powerful DA a la Jack McCoy, cruising around crime scenes and picking up spent shell casings with a pencil tip? Sending rapists and murdering scum up the river and then meeting “the boys” for a well-earned victory beer before firing up the Ferrari to head home?"

No, I don't remember those days.

With a title like "shitlaw primer"....

So the entire blog is filled with overly colorful hyperboles that undermine its entire credibility. What woe-is-me story is complete without tall tales, exaggerations and bald-faced lies?

This forum is for people geared towards T14. Some will strike out, as some strike out in every field, but anyone who makes it in T14 is probably going to be fine. We don't hear too many stories about them striking out because, even though it happens, it's by far the exception, not the rule. Everyone else who doesn't land T14, well, to be honest, I'm not worried about them. They made their choice.

[romothesavior]

Everyone else who doesn't land T14, well, to be honest, I'm not worried about them. They made their choice.

lolwut

Because things are so great at Cornell and Georegetown, but law review students at Vandy are scraping by for DUI work in rural Tennessee? amirite?

[wildcats2008]

"Because things are so great at Cornell and Georegetown, but law review students at Vandy are scraping by for DUI work in rural Tennessee? amirite?"

median students are cornell/georgetown are generally in better shape than median students at vandy. sure, law review people will be fine at vandy, but do you realize how tough that is to achieve? there's probably some below median graduate from a t4 who is a multimillionaire partner, but does that one case make a t4 at sticker a good investment? you need to look at large samples of data where you will find that ranking does matter.

[romothesavior]

"Because things are so great at Cornell and Georegetown, but law review students at Vandy are scraping by for DUI work in rural Tennessee? amirite?"

median students are cornell/georgetown are generally in better shape than median students at vandy. sure, law review people will be fine at vandy, but do you realize how tough that is to achieve? there's probably some below median graduate from a t4 who is a multimillionaire partner, but does that one case make a t4 at sticker a good investment? you need to look at large samples of data where you will find that ranking does matter.

You completely missed my point. I'm saying that it is flat out absurd to say "I'm T14 so I'm safe, but those non-T14 students deserve what they have coming to them." I would much, much rather be at a T14 on a large scholarship than be at CG at sticker (which is why I turned down both CG for a T20 scholarship). The T14 distinction is pretty absurd in general, IMO. Cornell and Georgetown are not much better than Vanderbilt/UCLA/Texas, and drawing the line of safe/unsafe at 14 is just about as stupid as it gets.

There are students who are uber-screwed all the way up to HYS.

[Grizz]

Everyone else who doesn't land T14, well, to be honest, I'm not worried about them. They made their choice.

lolwut

Because things are so great at Cornell and Georegetown, but law review students at Vandy are scraping by for DUI work in rural Tennessee? amirite?

Pretty much. I'm hoping for BIGTULLAHOMALAW

[Grizz]

median students are cornell/georgetown are generally in better shape than median students at vandy.

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but latest NLJ250 showed Vandy beating them out for % employed at NLJ250 firms, so your move duder

[gens1tb]

Anyone else notice that both in this article and in the last, the subjects of both had a "I'm gonna be handed a job when I graduate" mentality. The other guy literally said he thought that, and she implied it.

[prezidentv8]

Anyone else notice that both in this article and in the last, the subjects of both had a "I'm gonna be handed a job when I graduate" mentality. The other guy literally said he thought that, and she implied it.

^Almost always a problem in terms of ability to actually get one

[Aqualibrium]

She didn't start looking for a job until after she passed the bar exam. WTF did she expect? Fuck me, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I understand that they probably dont attract the cream of the crop at TJ, but you'd think even a drooling idiot could grasp the very basics of the legal job market.

Not sure if you're a 0L, 1L, 2L, or what, and I certainly didn't read the article...I just want to say that most people in law school aren't going to be able to find a job until they pass the bar. Generally, only the firms that follow the biglaw hiring model (SA-->Job offer) hire people who haven't passed the bar yet.

[vanwinkle]

Sure guys, everything is fine.

The funny thing is, very few people on TLS are saying everything is fine.

Go ahead and trash me, ban me, and go back to deciding what color IKEA sofa to purchase for your dorm room and what type of laptop is best for writing down the useless drivel that will soon spew from your "professors" mouths. It won't change the fact that the legal market is gruesome beyond belief and getting worse and worse each year.

Actually, I'm going to ban you for posting from a proxy server in Germany. If you really believe what you're saying, maybe next time you'll actually post it from home.

[romothesavior]

Pretty much. I'm hoping for BIGTULLAHOMALAW

This is funny to me because my aunt and uncle (who now live in Ashland City outside Nashville) used to live in Tullahoma for a long time. I used to go down there for two weeks every summer when I was a kid. Maybe I have the requisite ties to the area for BIGTULLAHOMALAW!

[niederbomb]

Someone please send me statistics showing a whole bunch of T10 grads who are unemployed. I got to lawschooltransparency.com for most of my info. The stats there are old, but if the problems with the legal market are structural, I don't think the situation could have changed that much.

Then, I might pay attention. I am serious. I have other options besides law school, so I really want to know the facts. T2-T4's are shitholes. I don't want to hear your sob stories. You were idiots for choosing those schools. But if I read about a bunch of Penn grads who remained unemployed for 1+ years, I will lose sleep at night.

[vanwinkle]

Someone please send me statistics showing a whole bunch of T10 grads who are unemployed. I got to lawschooltransparency.com for most of my info. The stats there are old, but if the problems with the legal market are structural, I don't think the situation could have changed that much.

Then, I might pay attention. I am serious. I have other options besides law school, so I really want to know the facts. T2-T4's are shitholes. I don't want to hear your sob stories. You were idiots for choosing those schools. But if I read about a bunch of Penn grads who remained unemployed for 1+ years, I will lose sleep at night.

I personally know of at least one NU grad with top grades who's still looking for work more than six months after graduating.

[Grizz]

Pretty much. I'm hoping for BIGTULLAHOMALAW

This is funny to me because my aunt and uncle (who now live in Ashland City outside Nashville) used to live in Tullahoma for a long time. I used to go down there for two weeks every summer when I was a kid. Maybe I have the requisite ties to the area for BIGTULLAHOMALAW!

George Dickel must need a couple people to work as counsel for them, right? A couple dudes who love booze?