Top Law Schools

Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

1. Yale 58
2. Stanford University 60
3. Northwestern University 65
4. Duke University 68
5. University of Virginia 72
6. Harvard University 80
7. University of Pennsylvania 85
8. New York University 89
9. University of California, Berkeley 90
10. University of Michigan 91
11. University of Chicago 93
12. Columbia University 95
13. Cornell University 99
14. Georgetown University 117

What are the pros/cons of section size?

Ragged wrote:What are the pros/cons of section size?

The pros/cons for section size are essentially the same as the pros/cons for class size. I think section size is a more meaningful metric and more indicative of your 1L experience because each section stays together for all of its course work.

dcpolitico wrote:

Ragged wrote:What are the pros/cons of section size?

The pros/cons for section size are essentially the same as the pros/cons for class size. I think section size is a more meaningful metric and more indicative of your 1L experience because each section stays together for all of its course work.

Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.

When I think pros/cons for small class size, I think more intimate experience with professors and classmates. But section size is what matters.

My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

Knock wrote:Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.

People play this up a bit too much on here. The reputation of the school serves a serious counterweight to this problem. Harvard places just as well as Stanford even with it's massive class size. Harvard is Harvard so it doesn't particularly matter. Michigan has a bigger class size than Vanderbilt yet it still measurably outperforms Vandy---- class size isn't the be all end all for placement power.

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

That is not a downside comparatively speaking.

Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

BruceWayne wrote:

Knock wrote:Well, class size also indicates how many students a firm is trying to place into jobs. Obviously it's harder to place 450+ Georgetown grads into jobs than a similarly ranked school with a smaller class size, etc.

So it's hard to say that section size is more meangingful. They're different and both should be considered.

People play this up a bit too much on here. The reputation of the school serves a serious counterweight to this problem. Harvard places just as well as Stanford even with it's massive class size. Harvard is Harvard so it doesn't particularly matter. Michigan has a bigger class size than Vanderbilt yet it still measurably outperforms Vandy---- class size isn't the be all end all for placement power.

Based on the placement data the HLSers leaked, it appears they placed around how CLS/NYU placed. Then again I don't know how SLS has weathered the storm since CA has been so ugly.

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

1. What definition?

2. This sounds like the smaller groups that every school has for LRW classes, which are not the same thing as a section.

FWIW, NYU's sections were about 95 people this year.

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

Chicago has 33, following this metric

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?

swimbrad wrote:

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

Chicago has 33, following this metric

yeah, ditto with Columbia, our legal writing class was 11 people and one of the other classes was ~30 people. then we had 2 large classes of 90-100.

Honestly, the "more intimate experience" with professors is overhyped, most professors sit around in office hours facing an empty office half the time, and usually stick around after class to speak one on one. these are all great institutions with dedicated professors, if a student really needed some facetime the difference in their section size doesn't matter much. as for making friends with your section, most of the people i hang out with outside class are not from my section but from various extracurriculars

IAFG wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?

My torts class has 61, my civ pro 62, and property 63. I dunno where the extra people come from.

dcpolitico wrote:Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

1. Yale 58
2. Stanford University 60
3. Northwestern University 65
4. Duke University 68
5. University of Virginia 72
6. Harvard University 80
7. University of Pennsylvania 85
8. New York University 89
9. University of California, Berkeley 90
10. University of Michigan 91
11. University of Chicago 93
12. Columbia University 95
13. Cornell University 99
14. Georgetown University 117

1L sections at UVA have ~30. What you're listing are the average numbers of people in each 1L class (like Torts, CivPro, Contracts, etc.).

Desert Fox wrote:

IAFG wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:My section had 61 people. It was nice having it fairly small.

Downside more cold calls.

All the NU sections were smaller than 165. I wonder if that was attrition or shrinking the class size or about getting our medians up or ...?

My torts class has 61, my civ pro 62, and property 63. I dunno where the extra people come from.

We had some 2-year foreign JDs and a 2L in a couple of my classes.

RVP11 wrote:

dcpolitico wrote:Using most recent data from the LSAC Official Guide

1. Yale 58
2. Stanford University 60
3. Northwestern University 65
4. Duke University 68
5. University of Virginia 72
6. Harvard University 80
7. University of Pennsylvania 85
8. New York University 89
9. University of California, Berkeley 90
10. University of Michigan 91
11. University of Chicago 93
12. Columbia University 95
13. Cornell University 99
14. Georgetown University 117

1L sections at UVA have ~30. What you're listing are the average numbers of people in each 1L class (like Torts, CivPro, Contracts, etc.).

Some schools call those "sections." At least NYU does. The smaller classes are our "lawyering" (LRW) groups.

what the HELL is this nonsense?

Duke has 6 sections of approximately 40 this year.

Cornell sections are apx. 30 people, so a third of what you have here. This semester I had two classes with just my section, one class with my section and one other section, and two classes with my section and two other sections.

danidancer wrote:Cornell sections are apx. 30 people, so a third of what you have here. This semester I had two classes with just my section, one class with my section and one other section, and two classes with my section and two other sections.

This indicates to me that ranking and measuring "section" size of the law schools is largely a hopeless endeavor. Cornell defines their sections smaller... but they have classes with other sections, which partly negates that advantage. Other schools have sections as large as 90 students but they never combine with other sections, and they split their 90-student sections up for the smaller, more intimate courses, accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.

Tanicius wrote:accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.

Sort of like catapulting OUT of the gorge.

IAFG wrote: Based on the placement data the HLSers leaked, it appears they placed around how CLS/NYU placed. Then again I don't know how SLS has weathered the storm since CA has been so ugly.

Do you think that has anything to do with self-selection for clerkships or prestigious PI jobs?

clintonius wrote:

naruhodo wrote:Actually, based on your definition of section, YLS's sections (known as "small groups") are no more than 16 people each. Each small group has one class by itself and then three other classes with three to five other small groups.

1. What definition?

2. This sounds like the smaller groups that every school has for LRW classes, which are not the same thing as a section.

1. By definition I meant this:

dcpolitico wrote:each section stays together for all of its course work.

2. It's different from LRW classes, as YLS small groups have one substantive course (Constitutional Law, Contracts, Procedure, or Torts) with a full professor by themselves.

Tanicius wrote:
This indicates to me that ranking and measuring "section" size of the law schools is largely a hopeless endeavor. Cornell defines their sections smaller... but they have classes with other sections, which partly negates that advantage. Other schools have sections as large as 90 students but they never combine with other sections, and they split their 90-student sections up for the smaller, more intimate courses, accomplishing the same exact task as Cornell but doing it from the opposite direction.

Agreed.