What T14 grouping is Berkeley in? Forum

[r6_philly]

Transactional IP is most certainly real. It's a subset of corporate work. Someone's gotta assess the value of IP and deal with licenses/patents/what-have-you when one company is acquiring another.

More on point: Berkeley is a great school (especially on the West Coast), but the grading system does hurt it relative to other schools.

I would make a ton of money just writing Internet based contracts/agreements. The stuff I get at work are written by LA majors and it shows...

[vicuna]

BigLaw placement aside for a moment, how does Berkeley compare to CCN and MVP in terms of PI/Gov? Is there a way to even gauge that?

[mrmangs]

Transactional IP is most certainly real. It's a subset of corporate work. Someone's gotta assess the value of IP and deal with licenses/patents/what-have-you when one company is acquiring another.

More on point: Berkeley is a great school (especially on the West Coast), but the grading system does hurt it relative to other schools.

As a native West Coaster, I would love to go to school here. Ideally, I'd like to end up working in SF or Seattle, but the West Coast generally would be nice. That said, I also want BigLaw, and the markets here aren't doing so hot. I haven't ever been to the East Coast and have only briefly visited the South, but I have nothing against either (in fact, I am kind of curious to try living in both regions). And, obviously, ITE, you have to be flexible in terms of where you'll work (or even go to school). Stanford is a no brainer, but Berkeley is in that nebulous territory where, yes, it's an amazing school, especially for the West Coast, but the West Coast isn't where most of the BigLaw hiring is going on, and Berkeley apparently doesn't attract many East Coast firms to its OCI. While I hear reassurances that Berkeley's low placement is because the students there opt out of BigLaw, I can't help but be ambivalent... I love Berkeley, but I don't know if I'm willing to bet OCI offers on it.

[tgir]

BigLaw placement aside for a moment, how does Berkeley compare to CCN and MVP in terms of PI/Gov? Is there a way to even gauge that?

+1

[screwsandboalts]

The reason why Berkeley has worse biglaw placement ITE than MVP is because it gets much fewer East Coast firms at OCI and probably partly because of its grading system. (And don't respond with but you can "mass mail" biglaw firms. Unless you are IP or have top 10% grades or have some weird military background (like Marines or whatever), chances are you won't even get a screening interview.)

)]

it should be noted that many people here have no interest in east coast firms (im not saying that nobody does, but my guess is 8/10 want to stay in CA) - ive heard stories of east coast firms telling boalties on interviews that they dont bother showing up at oci because they don't see a lot of interest from us.

and yeah, the grading system might put people at a disadvantage who get all Ps, but it takes a lot of pressure off and even fosters a normal, non-competitive, enjoyable human atmosphere. just this week (during finals), i know of 4 people who have had their computers crash and they've all said they were flooded with outlines and notes from practically everybody in their mod. thats pretty legit.

i'm not saying rankings dont matter, but for 0Ls who are looking at this thread to evaluate their decisions for next year, just remember that rankings aren't everything. berkeley is still up there, but more importantly, the students here are awesome, and the profs are unreal - some of the smartest and nicest people ive ever met.
(i'm sure ill catch a lot of heat on here because for some reason, berkeley gets no TLS love... but remember - boalt is #1 in kens book)

[irishman86]

The reason why Berkeley has worse biglaw placement ITE than MVP is because it gets much fewer East Coast firms at OCI and probably partly because of its grading system. (And don't respond with but you can "mass mail" biglaw firms. Unless you are IP or have top 10% grades or have some weird military background (like Marines or whatever), chances are you won't even get a screening interview.)

)]

it should be noted that many people here have no interest in east coast firms (im not saying that nobody does, but my guess is 8/10 want to stay in CA) - ive heard stories of east coast firms telling boalties on interviews that they dont bother showing up at oci because they don't see a lot of interest from us.

Before ITE, Berkeley students' bias towards working in California may have explained its historically lower biglaw placement rates compared to peer schools' rates. It's arguable that in the past students chose to work in smaller California firms than in biglaw elsewhere. However, ITE, it is difficult finding any legal employment in California. I doubt that Berkeley students are actively choosing to be unemployed over getting 160k biglaw in another region, keeping in mind that 50% of the class isn't even from California and therefore probably do not have familial ties binding them to the state.

Two possible reasons why firms may have stopped going to Berkeley's OCI are that firms want to save on transportation costs (although many East Coast firms still recruit at Stanford), and firms believe that Berkeley students don't want to work in other markets. However, assuming that the average Berkeley student is rational, it's likely that the second reason is not realistic. The rational Berkeley student seeks employment over unemployment. Moreover, these reasons don't negate the fact that for whatever reason, many East Coast firms have stopped recruiting at Berkeley, and if a biglaw firm is not interviewing on campus, it is almost impossible to land a screening interview without top 10% grades, an IP background, or military experience/unique work experience. The firm rationale is understandable - why should they bother expending more resources to interview applicants similar to the ones they are already interviewing at other T-14s? Note: This rationale provides the students at schools where they conduct on-campus interviews the opportunity to "wow" them in person and perhaps compensate for a lackluster GPA and resume. Assuming that the rational Berkeley student without the aforementioned factors seeks employment over unemployment, they may have a difficult time landing biglaw in another state because most biglaw firms limit their recruiting to on-campus interviews, and only provide exceptions to the rule to a very small number of applicants.

[09042014]

Before ITE, Berkeley students' bias towards working in California may have explained its historically lower biglaw placement rates compared to peer schools' rates. It's arguable that in the past students chose to work in smaller California firms than in biglaw elsewhere. However, ITE, it is difficult finding any legal employment in California. I doubt that Berkeley students are actively choosing to be unemployed over getting 160k biglaw in another region, keeping in mind that 50% of the class isn't even from California and therefore probably do not have familial ties binding them to the state.

Two possible reasons why firms may have stopped going to Berkeley's OCI are that firms want to save on transportation costs (although many East Coast firms still recruit at Stanford), and firms believe that Berkeley students don't want to work in other markets. However, assuming that the average Berkeley student is rational, it's likely that the second reason is not realistic. The rational Berkeley student seeks employment over unemployment. Moreover, these reasons don't negate the fact that for whatever reason, many East Coast firms have stopped recruiting at Berkeley, and if a biglaw firm is not interviewing on campus, it is almost impossible to land a screening interview without top 10% grades, an IP background, or military experience/unique work experience. The firm rationale is understandable - why should they bother expending more resources to interview applicants similar to the ones they are already interviewing at other T-14s? Note: This rationale provides the students at schools where they conduct on-campus interviews the opportunity to "wow" them in person and perhaps compensate for a lackluster GPA and resume. Assuming that the rational Berkeley student without the aforementioned factors seeks employment over unemployment, they may have a difficult time landing biglaw in another state because most biglaw firms limit their recruiting to on-campus interviews, and only provide exceptions to the rule to a very small number of applicants.

If Boalt kids rarely went to east coast firms over a very time by choice, eventually there is a weak alumni network, and firms write them off. And firms who didn't go do OCI at Boalt in 2007 because they couldn't get anyone certainly aren't going to start in the worst economic climate in decades.

Regional self selection makes a school less national if it is extreme enough.

[JusticeHarlan]

Y H S CC BN MVP DNC GtownVandyTex

I'll call your idiotic grouping and raise you this (probably less) idiotic grouping.

Y - S - H - V - M - Co - Ch - Nw - P - D - Nyu - V - C - G - Tex - Usc - Ucla

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

This data isn't as helpful as it seems. It combines class of 2009 firm placement stats with class of 2008 clerkship placement stats. There's an argument to be made that schools like NYU (which us below the likes of UVA and Duke in this chart) will have counter-cyclical clerkship numbers when firms either aren't hiring, or, as happened to class of 2009 graduates, got no-offered or deferred.

Or, as DF said in that thread, "TL;DR summary: YHSCCN students who got no offered ate your clerkship up."

[SemperLegal]

or have some weird military background (like Marines or whatever), chances are you won't even get a screening interview.)

YAAAHHH, GO ME!!!! Glad my poor life choices are finally paying off.

[r6_philly]

If Boalt kids rarely went to east coast firms over a very time by choice, eventually there is a weak alumni network, and firms write them off. And firms who didn't go do OCI at Boalt in 2007 because they couldn't get anyone certainly aren't going to start in the worst economic climate in decades.

Regional self selection makes a school less national if it is extreme enough.

Does that give kids who are from the east coast and want to return a leg up at OCI for east coast firm jobs (the ones that do recruit there still)?

[Patriot1208]

YS - H - CCN- MVPDN-BC- Tex Van Gtown

This looks about right considering what we've seen/heard from placement.

[sophia.olive]

Im sure this has been discussed but why is Berkeley always the odd man out. HYS CCN MVP DNCG...Why no B?

You are assuming Berkeley is in the T14.

[whitman]

This is such a stupid topic. Why does this matter to you? Do you think firms, judges, or clients ask what category "B" goes in? Grow the fuck up.

Why are you here? And how is that not a legitimate question? Please explain. As a courtesy, I will explain why it is relevant. True, TLS seems to draw a fair number of uneducated 0Ls who nevertheless persist in making bold sweeping statements. However, the tiers I referenced generally correspond to job prospects, i.e. HYS will provide better job prospects than CCN which will provide better job prospects than MVP, and so on. Or, at least, that is their purported intention. I do not believe they are grouped according to sexiness (see University of Chicago), lay prestige (see New York University or Chicago), or glamor of location (see Yale).

Other schools that have tended to attract a fair amount of attention and praise include Vanderbilt, among others. Why? Job placement outperforms ranking. Schools that have attracted scorn? Cornell and Georgetown, whose job placement seems to underperform their ranking ITE.

My question was, Why does Berkeley not factor into these discussions? Why are they not generally placed into a peer group, which would provide a relevant metric for people searching for information about their placement, portability, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to base my decision on which group they're placed into - and I hope no one who reads this for information will do that. However, I am curious as to the reason, and I think many people have done a reasonably adequate job of explaining it.

I will try to grow up, though, and I urge you to attempt to do the same. Cheers.