Top Law Schools

Is the difference between these 3 GPAs really that significant?

The difference is mostly in the way it sounds; that being said, the "way it sounds" does matter, but adcoms are not stupid. They know that the difference between a 2.95 and a 3.00 is likely getting an extra one or two A's, and much less between 2.99 and 3.0. So no, there is not that much of a difference as far as admissions are concerned, but it does matter.

MW

MW is wrong; there is a real difference at many schools.

A number of top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

This is probably true, but law school predictor says almost no difference. Same for hourumd. Go figure.

MW

vanwinkle wrote:MW is wrong; there is a real difference at many schools.

A number of top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

Can you tell me where I could find these results?

MysticalWheel wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

This is probably true, but law school predictor says almost no difference. Same for hourumd. Go figure.

MW

LSP is strictly numerical. It doesn't take into consideration any "floors" or "ceilings". You could hypothetically type in 20000 for your LSAT and .1 for your GPA and it would still calculate your odds.

URMdan wrote:

MysticalWheel wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

LSP is strictly numerical. It doesn't take into consideration any "floors" or "ceilings". You could hypothetically type in 20000 for your LSAT and .1 for your GPA and it would still calculate your odds.

Yes, that's true, but I typed in 3.0/174 and 2.99/174 and any numbers that moved (as far as the in/out record) only moved by at most 1. The difference was even less at law school predictor. I did, however, only look at the top 10 schools.

MW

it's comparable to the difference of saying that you are unemployed or that you are an entrepreneur (that's right, straight out of The Social Network)). People know there isn't much difference between the two, but the latter sounds hell-of-a-lot better.

Note: If you do identify yourself as an entrepreneur, I did not mean to offend you....

MysticalWheel wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

This is probably true, but law school predictor says almost no difference. Same for hourumd. Go figure.

MW

Check out Michigan for the last 4 years:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0607/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0708/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0809/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Acceptances all the way down into the 3.0-3.1 range each year. Below 3.0? Nope, nobody gets in even with 175+ LSATs. There are only two below-3.0 admits in that entire four-year spread, and they're both URMs. (URMs work differently with the 3.0 floor, apparently, just like they do with everything else.)

MysticalWheel wrote:

URMdan wrote:

MysticalWheel wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

LSP is strictly numerical. It doesn't take into consideration any "floors" or "ceilings". You could hypothetically type in 20000 for your LSAT and .1 for your GPA and it would still calculate your odds.

Yes, that's true, but I typed in 3.0/174 and 2.99/174 and any numbers that moved (as far as the in/out record) only moved by at most 1. The difference was even less at law school predictor. I did, however, only look at the top 10 schools.

MW

LSP uses a statistical method to gauge your chances based on where you fall relative to the IQR. Therefore, if an admissions office adheres to a GPA floor at 3.0, this would not be reflected in LSP or even Hourumd (which uses a range to calculate your chances). The difference was obviously tiny on LSP, as .01 GPA point is statistically insignificant.

vanwinkle wrote:

MysticalWheel wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Many top schools have a 3.0 "floor" that they tend not to go under. It's not published anywhere, but you can clearly see it in their admissions results. There's rarely a difference between 2.95 and 2.99, but at these schools there can be a tremendous difference between 2.99 and 3.0.

This is probably true, but law school predictor says almost no difference. Same for hourumd. Go figure.

MW

Check out Michigan for the last 4 years:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0607/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0708/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0809/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Acceptances all the way down into the 3.0-3.1 range each year. Below 3.0? Nope, nobody gets in even with 175+ LSATs. There are only two below-3.0 admits in that entire four-year spread, and they're both URMs. (URMs work differently with the 3.0 floor, apparently, just like they do with everything else.)

I stand corrected; nevertheless, law school predictor/calculator still says it's not a big difference, so I guess it does not tell the whole picture at all.

MW

invisiblesun wrote:

MysticalWheel wrote:

URMdan wrote:

LSP is strictly numerical. It doesn't take into consideration any "floors" or "ceilings". You could hypothetically type in 20000 for your LSAT and .1 for your GPA and it would still calculate your odds.

Yes, that's true, but I typed in 3.0/174 and 2.99/174 and any numbers that moved (as far as the in/out record) only moved by at most 1. The difference was even less at law school predictor. I did, however, only look at the top 10 schools.

MW

LSP uses a statistical method to gauge your chances based on where you fall relative to the IQR. Therefore, if an admissions office adheres to a GPA floor at 3.0, this would not be reflected in LSP or even Hourumd (which uses a range to calculate your chances). The difference was obviously tiny on LSP, as .01 GPA point is statistically insignificant.

This makes perfect sense, and it explains why vanwinkle's data is not apparent from LSP or hourumd. Thanks.

MW

Would the same phenomenon hold for other GPAs that are on the cusp of being a nice, clean, more attractive number? Say, a 3.59 or a 3.69? Obviously in that case you're not dealing with the prospect of just missing a floor like 3.0, but do ad comms tend to take into account that 0.01 difference to a greater degree than they would if they were comparing two GPAs like 3.86 and 3.87?

URMdan wrote:Is the difference between these 3 GPAs really that significant?

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Are you trolling or is this a serious question?

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Depends on the what the school's 25%/75% is?

vanwinkle wrote: Check out Michigan for the last 4 years:

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0607/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0708/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0809/
http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Acceptances all the way down into the 3.0-3.1 range each year. Below 3.0? Nope, nobody gets in even with 175+ LSATs. There are only two below-3.0 admits in that entire four-year spread, and they're both URMs. (URMs work differently with the 3.0 floor, apparently, just like they do with everything else.)

I don't think the sample size is big enough to use. The only sub 3.0 GPA's we care about are in the 2.9-2.99 range.

Also, I would double-check your evidence about the 3.0 floor for URMs. One of the two sub 3.0 URM admits that you counted is the famous troll "loshanda" (148 LSAT?). And you missed a White admit with a 2.9/170.

URMdan wrote:And you missed a White admit with a 2.9/170.

Which cycle is this? I'm not seeing it.

Do schools have LSAT floor too? Does it matter if one's LSAT is 1 point below the 25 percentile or 3 points? 5 points?

tea_drinker wrote:Do schools have LSAT floor too? Does it matter if one's LSAT is 1 point below the 25 percentile or 3 points? 5 points?

Depends on the school and what your GPA is.

tea_drinker wrote:Do schools have LSAT floor too? Does it matter if one's LSAT is 1 point below the 25 percentile or 3 points? 5 points?

Don't you mean below the "0 percentile", since you're asking about floors?

MW

MysticalWheel wrote:

tea_drinker wrote:Do schools have LSAT floor too? Does it matter if one's LSAT is 1 point below the 25 percentile or 3 points? 5 points?

Don't you mean below the "0 percentile", since you're asking about floors?

MW

Yes and No. If I have used "0 percentile," I would have to structure my question as "what is the 0 percentile of [school name]? Since schools are different from one another, which would render their different 0 percentile, I am more interested to know how low of a LSAT schools would take below their 25 percentile, which is a more reliable factor in comparing peer schools.

tea_drinker wrote:Do schools have LSAT floor too? Does it matter if one's LSAT is 1 point below the 25 percentile or 3 points? 5 points?

I think the same schools that have a GPA floor of 3.0 have an LSAT floor of 160 (maybe higher).

FWIW, UVA is a 3.0 floor school and a 2.99 and 2.95 got rounded up and accepted last cycle.

vanwinkle wrote:

URMdan wrote:And you missed a White admit with a 2.9/170.

Which cycle is this? I'm not seeing it.

06-07 "GCoop" with a 170/2.9

the difference between these numbers is like the difference between paying 29,999, 29,950 or 30,000 for a car. Its the same thing really, but the psychological fator is huge. ( if you are buying the car, you feel better paying 29,950 instead of 30,000- if you are selling it, you are happier with a 30,000 than 29,999)

Now, there are some people who will look at the first number. If its a 3- then they will continue, if its a 2, then they may say- gpa too low. Some schools wont round, others will. Its all about presentation. Your application looks much better with a higher number in front ( same with the lsat). In reality its not that big of a deal, but since admission descisions are made rather quickly, and who knows how long and thoroughly people read the applications ( or skim) it may be more important that you realize.

URMdan wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:

URMdan wrote:And you missed a White admit with a 2.9/170.

Which cycle is this? I'm not seeing it.

06-07 "GCoop" with a 170/2.9

Still not seeing it. I look at the Mich 06/07 graph and don't see anything in that spot except a rejection of a "VanWilder" (not related to me).