Top Law Schools

I've noticed statistics saying that around 84% of students in the T30 take out loans to pay for law school. That leaves thousands of students who don't, and graduate without debt. So is it still a bad decision?

In other words, is law school a 'waste of money'? Or is it just dangerous to those who graduate with a significant amount of debt? I don't see a lot of caveats about people who are able to graduate debt free, meaning with money from family or even full rides from T14 (hey, it happens).

I'd be interested to hear opinions regarding this distinction.

I would say the consensus is that getting a Hamilton or a Darrow makes law school a good investment.

Sentry wrote:I would say the consensus is that getting a Hamilton or a Darrow makes law school a good investment.

You forgot a Rubinstein. Or an RTK. Or a Dillard. Not a Levy, though, cuz you still have to pay some tuition. And I'm still not 100% on that "Go work for a year and we'll give you 135k" thing that those non-T10'ers throw around.

Law school is a maelstrom of bad decisions:

1) The debt

2) The dim high paying job prospects

3) The dim any paying job prospects

4) The fact that it's a poorly thought out fallback option for many

5) The contentious and stressful nature of the school and work, which is bad for the psyche of many people

If you can eliminate most of those problems (just by being somebody who they wouldn't effect, going to the right school, being independently wealthy, being particularly introspective, etc.) then law school is great.

But most law students across the country suffer from 1-4 and don't have personalities that mesh well with 5.

sanetruth wrote: I don't see a lot of caveats about people who are able to graduate debt free, meaning with money from family or even full rides from T14.

disco_barred wrote:Law school is a maelstrom of bad decisions:

1) The debt

Very enlightening, thank you.

The thing to keep in mind is every year there are 45,000 new JDs awarded. Every year there are 7 new legal jobs created. So mathematically speaking your odds of getting a job are 1.55x10^-4%. So even a free JD is basically worthless.

Sentry wrote:The thing to keep in mind is every year there are 45,000 new JDs awarded. Every year there are 7 new legal jobs created. So mathematically speaking your odds of getting a job are 1.55x10^-4%. So even a free JD is basically worthless.

I certify this post as close enough to mathematically correct to be accurate.

Sentry wrote:The thing to keep in mind is every year there are 45,000 new JDs awarded. Every year there are 7 new legal jobs created. So mathematically speaking your odds of getting a job are 1.55x10^-4%. So even a free JD is basically worthless.

right--there are no retirements.

LS is a disastrous decision every time you realize you wasted 3 years of your life on a degree that doesn't get you what you want.

It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

MrAnon wrote:You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Not sure if serious.

MrAnon wrote:It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Yea this isnt quite as simplistic as you make it seem. I reckon that very few recently graduated 22/23 year old's are going to be able to secure a $180000 loan. Im pretty sure no bank is going to lend that amount of money to the "typical" prelaw student. Maybe $1,800.

gdane5 wrote:

MrAnon wrote:It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Yea this isnt quite as simplistic as you make it seem. I reckon that very few recently graduated 22/23 year old's are going to be able to secure a $180000 loan. Im pretty sure no bank is going to lend that amount of money to the "typical" prelaw student. Maybe $1,800.

Yeah but think of the sweet bike you could get for $1800.

Not only no retirements, but no people who quit or die. Unless the 7 jobs were in fact the net figure...

180k loan and start your own business?
This assumes you can actually run a successful business and can persuade a bank to loan you the money in the first place.

(guess I was slow typing this...)

gdane5 wrote:

MrAnon wrote:It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Yea this isnt quite as simplistic as you make it seem. I reckon that very few recently graduated 22/23 year old's are going to be able to secure a $180000 loan. Im pretty sure no bank is going to lend that amount of money to the "typical" prelaw student. Maybe $1,800.

Okay, get it through parents then. The other point is that you could be out working in an entry level job really moving towards a goal in management or whatever rather than stuck for 3 years of your life in the rat race of law school, which virtually everyone is losing at this point. 3 years of law school is 3 years of lost earnings, even if you exclude debt.

Skyhook wrote:Not only no retirements, but no people who quit or die. Unless the 7 jobs were in fact the net figure...

180k loan and start your own business?
This assumes you can actually run a successful business and can persuade a bank to loan you the money in the first place.

(guess I was slow typing this...)

Are you saying this would be more or less of a success than law school?

MrAnon wrote:

gdane5 wrote:

MrAnon wrote:It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Yea this isnt quite as simplistic as you make it seem. I reckon that very few recently graduated 22/23 year old's are going to be able to secure a $180000 loan. Im pretty sure no bank is going to lend that amount of money to the "typical" prelaw student. Maybe $1,800.

Okay, get it through parents then. The other point is that you could be out working in an entry level job really moving towards a goal in management or whatever rather than stuck for 3 years of your life in the rat race of law school, which virtually everyone is losing at this point. 3 years of law school is 3 years of lost earnings, even if you exclude debt.

What are 5 years old? Man up. Be your own person. At the age of 22 (or any age after 20 for that matter), you should no longer have to depend on your parents for anything. No ifs ands or buts. Grow up.

Also, there is as much uncertainty, if not more, in opening a business than there is in going to law school. Its been proven that most new business dont earn significant profits and actually tend to lose money during their first 5 years of operation. So in this scenario opening a business is more risky than going to law school for 3 years is.

MrAnon wrote:

gdane5 wrote:

MrAnon wrote:It is just a plain out waste of money, debt or not. You could take out $180K and start a business and probably get a better returns and definitely have a legacy to pass on.

Yea this isnt quite as simplistic as you make it seem. I reckon that very few recently graduated 22/23 year old's are going to be able to secure a $180000 loan. Im pretty sure no bank is going to lend that amount of money to the "typical" prelaw student. Maybe $1,800.

Okay, get it through parents then. The other point is that you could be out working in an entry level job really moving towards a goal in management or whatever rather than stuck for 3 years of your life in the rat race of law school, which virtually everyone is losing at this point. 3 years of law school is 3 years of lost earnings, even if you exclude debt.

Assuming you can even get an entry level job. Many L.A students are having difficulty procuring any type of employment outside of Starbucks and Barnes and Noble. The reason many people are drawn to the profession is because it is the closest thing to a vocational school for humanities majors.

Obviously the debt makes a big difference. $1000-$2000 a month from your after tax income is going to be pretty significant for most people. Just try out some budgets...

And most new businesses don't make it at all, nevermind survive five years and become profitable. There are entire canons of contract law and reams of lending standards built around the fact that any given new business is almost certain to fail. Of the small % that don't, the survivors are highly biased towards established people in an industry starting something new, or wealthy businessmen (i.e. can raise equity and fund losses if necessary; also tend to know how to handle business) stepping into a new industry. Overlooking for a moment there's a reason the government will give Mr. No Assets $180,000 for school but the bank won't give Mr. No Assets $180,000 for something else.

MrAnon wrote:Okay, get it through parents then. The other point is that you could be out working in an entry level job really moving towards a goal in management or whatever rather than stuck for 3 years of your life in the rat race of law school, which virtually everyone is losing at this point. 3 years of law school is 3 years of lost earnings, even if you exclude debt.

No matter how bad the legal economy is, I still think there is a larger likelihood of success through going to law school than trying to start one's own business with $180k. People are unbelievably stupid and it is far easier to secure a job through law school, even one with bad prospects, than to start a business that actually manages to stay afloat.

There are reams of statistics that show law school students from biggest toilet schools around have terrific career prospects...

MrAnon wrote:There are reams of statistics that show law school students from biggest toilet schools around have terrific career prospects...

What are you even saying?

sanetruth wrote:I've noticed statistics saying that around 84% of students in the T30 take out loans to pay for law school. That leaves thousands of students who don't, and graduate without debt. So is it still a bad decision?

In other words, is law school a 'waste of money'? Or is it just dangerous to those who graduate with a significant amount of debt? I don't see a lot of caveats about people who are able to graduate debt free, meaning with money from family or even full rides from T14 (hey, it happens).

I'd be interested to hear opinions regarding this distinction.

With debt, it is a financial disaster.

Without debt, it is a career disaster.

Again, this applies to the majority, but not to all students. There are always exceptions.

Please take my opinion seriously. I just graduated from T14 and can't find a job. I have been insulted, trashed, and threatened with a ban here.

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paratactical wrote:--ImageRemoved--

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And that proves me wrong how...?