Forget Law School And Just Become A DayTrader??? Forum

[senunit]

Sarcastic or not, I think it's more fitting for TLS.com

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

If I had a million dollars, I would bet it right now that you will never make a long term profit day-trading. There are people MUCH smarter than you, especially about the market, that cannot make money doing this.

It's like when I was in high school and I won in blackjack like everyday for a week and paid for a trip to CA on my winnings. I came back knowing I could win anytime I wanted and I proceeded to get pwned by the odds. You are just getting lucky right now. 100% guaranteed. This is coming from somebody that knows more about the market than anyone on this site, since I lived and breathed the market from like age 10 to 25.

I'm leaving the industry after several years for law school so trust me when I say this:

Day trading is extremely difficult to do well over a long period of time. Competition from proprietary trading operations run by highly compensated individuals with years of experience will probably eat your lunch over an extended period--if not a shorter one. At the firm I worked for, the super majority of day traders (well over 90 percent) lost money over the long term. Those that managed to make money tended to have strong industry connections, a deep understanding of one or more sectors that overcame what I mentioned earlier, or a profitable strategy that was less profitable than other strategies they could have pursued. I can't tell you the number of brilliant people who strike out playing the market. Most mutual fund managers can't beat the market over the long term. Think about this a little longer. Perhaps there's a better use for your money.

Platonic, please take heed to these posts. I know what I am talking about, and I can confirm that they know what they are talking about.

[TheTopBloke]

I am in complete agreement with you, the sooner he starts day trading and stops posting on TLS the better for everyone.

The thing is, TopBloke, if I don't gain admission to at least a T14, I probably won't go to law school. I think this is probably the best option for me, provided that I'm an foreigner who actually has a job that pays twice the per capita income in his home country. I have a significant amount of money saved up (since I already have a house and a functional car), and am trying my best to weigh in my options about the future. Despite the fact that a lot of prospective law school applicants are passionate about learning the law, it's essential that we weigh in our risks, because adults pay BILLS.

If I can't even get a job that pays me 50K after graduation, then I'm completely screwed. Although I would have zero debt after law school, I still would have wasted three years and have carved into my hard-earned savings.

What I'm doing is something everyone should technically do.

To put this thread in perspective for you, I don't recall a single sentence in which you gave any motive for going to law school, but you did elaborate on your passion for trading. Trading's not easy, but hey, who knows, maybe you'll make a shit load of money. I sincerely hope you do.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it really is a no brainer at this point. Seriously, go trade.

[senunit]

+100000000 to the сomment above.

/ thread

[PLATONiC]

I think you're confusing derivatives with foreign exchange. There are derivatives that trade as foreign exchange, such as CFD's. Are you referring to CFD's or actual currency? I've heard several economists say the word forex. It's doesn't follow that just because you say forex you don't know what you're talking about.

Dude...it's extremely possible I'm confused. I'm a fucking liberal arts major,

Erm... then maybe it's just best that you just, don't say anything, you know?

[Merr]

I am in complete agreement with you, the sooner he starts day trading and stops posting on TLS the better for everyone.

The thing is, TopBloke, if I don't gain admission to at least a T14, I probably won't go to law school. I think this is probably the best option for me, provided that I'm an foreigner who actually has a job that pays twice the per capita income in his home country. I have a significant amount of money saved up (since I already have a house and a functional car), and am trying my best to weigh in my options about the future. Despite the fact that a lot of prospective law school applicants are passionate about learning the law, it's essential that we weigh in our risks, because adults pay BILLS.

If I can't even get a job that pays me 50K after graduation, then I'm completely screwed. Although I would have zero debt after law school, I still would have wasted three years and have carved into my hard-earned savings.

What I'm doing is something everyone should technically do.

To put this thread in perspective for you, I don't recall a single sentence in which you gave any motive for going to law school, but you did elaborate on your passion for trading. Trading's not easy, but hey, who knows, maybe you'll make a shit load of money. I sincerely hope you do.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but it really is a no brainer at this point. Seriously, go trade.

I 100% agree. On top of that it's fairly risky to assume you will land a long term legal career that starts at 50K+, at graduation, before even being accepted to law school.

OP do day trading, try to beat the Fx market, there is a slim chance you will get rich and if not you will go broke doing something you enjoy rather then grinding through law school hoping to beat the market that way.

[Unshake]

If I had a million dollars, I would bet it right now that you will never make a long term profit day-trading. There are people MUCH smarter than you, especially about the market, that cannot make money doing this.

It's like when I was in high school and I won in blackjack like everyday for a week and paid for a trip to CA on my winnings. I came back knowing I could win anytime I wanted and I proceeded to get pwned by the odds. You are just getting lucky right now. 100% guaranteed. This is coming from somebody that knows more about the market than anyone on this site, since I lived and breathed the market from like age 10 to 25.

I'm leaving the industry after several years for law school so trust me when I say this:

Day trading is extremely difficult to do well over a long period of time. Competition from proprietary trading operations run by highly compensated individuals with years of experience will probably eat your lunch over an extended period--if not a shorter one. At the firm I worked for, the super majority of day traders (well over 90 percent) lost money over the long term. Those that managed to make money tended to have strong industry connections, a deep understanding of one or more sectors that overcame what I mentioned earlier, or a profitable strategy that was less profitable than other strategies they could have pursued. I can't tell you the number of brilliant people who strike out playing the market. Most mutual fund managers can't beat the market over the long term. Think about this a little longer. Perhaps there's a better use for your money.

Platonic, please take heed to these posts. I know what I am talking about, and I can confirm that they know what they are talking about.

+1. Also, there are more options than day trading or law school.

[zeth006]

Yeah because...uhh...everyone here has a cash balance of 25k (minimum equity required for day trading) just sitting in a checking account at a bank. Seriously, whatever happened to getting a job (even a shitty one) and working your way up? Not only that, but timing the market is extremely difficult, if not impossible. The best fund managers from all the best schools can't consistently beat the market, what makes you think you can? Get a job, work your way up to management, and enjoy a debt free life.

Mtal, you and your smartass needs to get out of TLS.

You can open an e-mini account for an infinitely smaller balance.

I maybe a smartass, but you are DUMBass. Listen to me, I work at a discount broker and am series 7/63 licensed so I LOL know what I am talking about. Day trading means you are doing round trips; opening and closing a position in the same day. If you do this 4 times within a 5 day business period you will be FLAGGED as a day trader. If your account is below the 25k min. day trading equity you will be limited to closing transactions ONLY and you will be only be able to open a new position again in 90 days after the day trading flag has been removed, OR your account appreciates to above the 25k min. equity levels. These are all SEC/FINRA regulations and is true for all brokers in the U.S. So yes, you can open up an account with $100 (good luck making that last with commissions) but you won't be able to make more than 3 round trips in a week without your account being effectively shut down.

MTal, you're talking about stocks. FOREX = Foreign Exchange. SEC/FINRA don't regulate FOREX markets. You're stupid.

Most FOREX brokers only charge the spread as commission. Do your research before spilling your negative bullshit MTal.

My broker isn't even located in the U.S.

[MrKappus]

I think you're confusing derivatives with foreign exchange. There are derivatives that trade as foreign exchange, such as CFD's. Are you referring to CFD's or actual currency? I've heard several economists say the word forex. It's doesn't follow that just because you say forex you don't know what you're talking about.

Dude...it's extremely possible I'm confused. I'm a fucking liberal arts major,

Erm... then maybe it's just best that you just, don't say anything, you know?

Erm maybe it's best you STFU and get back to losing money on things you don't understand. Kthxbai.

[ajmanyjah]

You know, law school tuition/COA = $200,000. Include opportunity costs for me, that'll be about $350,000.

I've been paper trading for about four months now (I've been touching on daytrading for about a year, but started to study it very seriously about four months ago). To my surprise, I'm actually turning over consistent profits (not GREAT profits, but consistent). I think if I work on it for a couple of more months to establish my system, I'd be able to set up my live account and perhaps make a living off of this.

I know there are some fascinating points about law school, but ITE, I'm mostly concerned with making money to keep things afloat. Anybody wanna day trade with me????????????

$100,000 of capital is ALL you need to get started, if not even drastically lower... heck, you can even trade with $100.

EDIT: I think you guys need to understand that I'm doing a much simpler form of day trading... FOREX.

I focus on a single currency pair EUR/USD, and have developed a rather firm understanding of it so far (both in technical/fundamental terms). Unlike trading the stock market, I do not need to pay ridiculous amounts of commission, because all I have to pay is the spread (which consists of merely 1-2 pips).

I hope you realize that just because you can trade a volatile pair like USD/EUR with so much movement doesn't mean you can make a lifetime out of day trading, assuming short term results will last forever is the reason a lot of traders lost tons of money

[Grad_Student]

This thread is so money.

[TheTopBloke]

I hope you realize that just because you can trade a volatile pair like USD/EUR with so much movement doesn't mean you can make a lifetime out of day trading, assuming short term results will last forever is the reason a lot of traders lost tons of money

At the same time, it does not mean that he cannot make a lifetime out of day trading.

[PLATONiC]

I think you're confusing derivatives with foreign exchange. There are derivatives that trade as foreign exchange, such as CFD's. Are you referring to CFD's or actual currency? I've heard several economists say the word forex. It's doesn't follow that just because you say forex you don't know what you're talking about.

Dude...it's extremely possible I'm confused. I'm a fucking liberal arts major,

Erm... then maybe it's just best that you just, don't say anything, you know?

Erm maybe it's best you STFU and get back to losing money on things you don't understand. Kthxbai.

Thank you for conceding.

[PLATONiC]

I hope you realize that just because you can trade a volatile pair like USD/EUR with so much movement doesn't mean you can make a lifetime out of day trading, assuming short term results will last forever is the reason a lot of traders lost tons of money

At the same time, it does not mean that he cannot make a lifetime out of day trading.

But honestly, TheTopBloke, day trading isn't necessarily the life-time end that I'd want to achieve if I were to select an alternative to law school. I could day trade four only like three to four hours a day, while working my regular job, and then ultimately stack up on my math skills so that I can gain admissions to a financial eng. program or something. It'll just be a gateway to a different career.

[BigA]

If I had a million dollars, I would bet it right now that you will never make a long term profit day-trading. There are people MUCH smarter than you, especially about the market, that cannot make money doing this.

It's like when I was in high school and I won in blackjack like everyday for a week and paid for a trip to CA on my winnings. I came back knowing I could win anytime I wanted and I proceeded to get pwned by the odds. You are just getting lucky right now. 100% guaranteed. This is coming from somebody that knows more about the market than anyone on this site, since I lived and breathed the market from like age 10 to 25.

kinda funny that you thought you could win at blackjack. You weren't counting cards?

[pkrtbx]

I wanted to be in finance for a long time; I have done a TON of research on day trading and even the more "passive" types of active management. The simple fact is that no person, especially an individual who is pitted against institutional investors with vastly greater resources, can time the market and pick stocks in a consistently profitable way. In fact, 95% of the most highly funded and sophisticated traders will lose out against the S&P over time, even if they beat it in the short term. But beating it in the short term is itself pretty meaningless because the chances are overwhelming that you will not catch the right time to get out; if you do, several million people will have almost certainly jumped on it before you. I don't mean to sh*t on you as a trader, it's encouraging that you're making a profit, but just know that statistically, it is absolutely unsustainable.

I can't talk about law school because I haven't been yet. But the chances of being a consistently profitable day trader are next to zero, and are even less without prohibitively expensive and sophisticated trading platforms. Law might be one of the only professions that offers more favorable odds than active trading. In either case, good luck: you will need it.

[testmachine45]

i disagree - with enuff capital you can do big things. what the difference between a guy in a room and a hedge fund? crediability. that's all.

[yellowjacket2012]

its not really about how day trading works, its whether day trading works. I read the Malkiel book, forget what its called, which basically tears up day trading from a theoretical perspective, and also tears up retail investing in the form of stock picking, recommends indexing - end of story.

On the other hand, buying cheap stocks where the books are healthy is another predicament - tons of net-net stocks out there, eg. stocks that trade at 66% or less of their net current asset value.. which in English means you're buying them for less than they're worth in liquid assets after all debt, short and long term, is paid off.

Current market conditions are very favorable for finding and investing in such situations.

Other than that, indexing is a more tax-friendly way to go about doing things, just dollar cost average your lawyer earnings into an index.

Day trading on a retail level is an incredible idea - if you also happen to own a brokerage company with a lot of day traders.

[pkrtbx]

i disagree - with enuff capital you can do big things. what the difference between a guy in a room and a hedge fund? crediability. that's all.

Exactly: hedge funds rarely if ever post sustained results that beat the S&P; in fact, the average life of a hedge fund is what, 5-7 years? You are right, there is very little difference between a guy in a room and a hedge fund. And while the fundamental differences are small (the statistics are stacked against both), the technical ones are significant: hedge fund managers have access to trading desks and market makers that individuals do not. But as the previous poster suggested, stock picking can be profitable if you are extremely knowledgeable and EXTREMELY lucky, but statistics show that pretty much nothing can beat indexing over long periods of time, whether you are a hotshot hedge fund manager or a guy setting up shop in your living room.

[pkrtbx]

its not really about how day trading works, its whether day trading works. I read the Malkiel book, forget what its called, which basically tears up day trading from a theoretical perspective, and also tears up retail investing in the form of stock picking, recommends indexing - end of story.

On the other hand, buying cheap stocks where the books are healthy is another predicament - tons of net-net stocks out there, eg. stocks that trade at 66% or less of their net current asset value.. which in English means you're buying them for less than they're worth in liquid assets after all debt, short and long term, is paid off.

Current market conditions are very favorable for finding and investing in such situations.

Other than that, indexing is a more tax-friendly way to go about doing things, just dollar cost average your lawyer earnings into an index.

Day trading on a retail level is an incredible idea - if you also happen to own a brokerage company with a lot of day traders.

I referred to this in the previous post but just wanted to reiterate some thoughts:

This time if any is a great time to take advantage of undervalued equities and other underpriced investment opportunities coughBPcough.

Otherwise, you bring up a good point about day trading that I didn't address: commissions. Even the best online trading platform will give you neither the insight or the cost structure you need to be consistently profitable. It just isn't going to happen. Indexing is boring and can be disappointing at times (especially like yesterday) but there simply is not a way to beat it over time.

[tikiman6]

You know, law school tuition/COA = $200,000. Include opportunity costs for me, that'll be about $350,000.

I've been paper trading for about four months now (I've been touching on daytrading for about a year, but started to study it very seriously about four months ago). To my surprise, I'm actually turning over consistent profits (not GREAT profits, but consistent). I think if I work on it for a couple of more months to establish my system, I'd be able to set up my live account and perhaps make a living off of this.

I know there are some fascinating points about law school, but ITE, I'm mostly concerned with making money to keep things afloat. Anybody wanna day trade with me????????????

$100,000 of capital is ALL you need to get started, if not even drastically lower... heck, you can even trade with $100.

EDIT: I think you guys need to understand that I'm doing a much simpler form of day trading... FOREX.

I focus on a single currency pair EUR/USD, and have developed a rather firm understanding of it so far (both in technical/fundamental terms). Unlike trading the stock market, I do not need to pay ridiculous amounts of commission, because all I have to pay is the spread (which consists of merely 1-2 pips).

Timeline:
1st week, you have developed your "system." All is well.
1st month, you have made consistent profits.
2nd month, you lost money this past month, but you will get it back.
3rd month, your "system" is beginning to fail you as you have lost most of your capital.
4th month, you have bought on margins and shortsold yourself into debt.
5th month, bankruptcy.

[PLATONiC]

You know, law school tuition/COA = $200,000. Include opportunity costs for me, that'll be about $350,000.

I've been paper trading for about four months now (I've been touching on daytrading for about a year, but started to study it very seriously about four months ago). To my surprise, I'm actually turning over consistent profits (not GREAT profits, but consistent). I think if I work on it for a couple of more months to establish my system, I'd be able to set up my live account and perhaps make a living off of this.

I know there are some fascinating points about law school, but ITE, I'm mostly concerned with making money to keep things afloat. Anybody wanna day trade with me????????????

$100,000 of capital is ALL you need to get started, if not even drastically lower... heck, you can even trade with $100.

EDIT: I think you guys need to understand that I'm doing a much simpler form of day trading... FOREX.

I focus on a single currency pair EUR/USD, and have developed a rather firm understanding of it so far (both in technical/fundamental terms). Unlike trading the stock market, I do not need to pay ridiculous amounts of commission, because all I have to pay is the spread (which consists of merely 1-2 pips).

Timeline:
1st week, you have developed your "system." All is well.
1st month, you have made consistent profits.
2nd month, you lost money this past month, but you will get it back.
3rd month, your "system" is beginning to fail you as you have lost most of your capital.
4th month, you have bought on margins and shortsold yourself into debt.
5th month, bankruptcy.

I'm actually in the 1st month phase, where I'm making decent profits off of my system. I'm using a micro account, trading very small lots, where each pip only sinks in about $0.10. It's a fibonacci/elliott wave system, so it's very fragile.. I'll have to wait and see if my profits will really plunge... gl to me:D

[PLATONiC]

UPDATE: You guys were right. It's impossible to make money daytrading. I do NOT recommend it.

[zonto]

Looks like someone needs to brush up on their Boglehead materials. You are statistically doomed to failure.

[niederbomb]

You know, law school tuition/COA = $200,000. Include opportunity costs for me, that'll be about $350,000.

I've been paper trading for about four months now (I've been touching on daytrading for about a year, but started to study it very seriously about four months ago). To my surprise, I'm actually turning over consistent profits (not GREAT profits, but consistent). I think if I work on it for a couple of more months to establish my system, I'd be able to set up my live account and perhaps make a living off of this.

I know there are some fascinating points about law school, but ITE, I'm mostly concerned with making money to keep things afloat. Anybody wanna day trade with me????????????

$100,000 of capital is ALL you need to get started, if not even drastically lower... heck, you can even trade with $100.

EDIT: I think you guys need to understand that I'm doing a much simpler form of day trading... FOREX.

I focus on a single currency pair EUR/USD, and have developed a rather firm understanding of it so far (both in technical/fundamental terms). Unlike trading the stock market, I do not need to pay ridiculous amounts of commission, because all I have to pay is the spread (which consists of merely 1-2 pips).

Timeline:
1st week, you have developed your "system." All is well.
1st month, you have made consistent profits.
2nd month, you lost money this past month, but you will get it back.
3rd month, your "system" is beginning to fail you as you have lost most of your capital.
4th month, you have bought on margins and shortsold yourself into debt.
5th month, bankruptcy.

I'm actually in the 1st month phase, where I'm making decent profits off of my system. I'm using a micro account, trading very small lots, where each pip only sinks in about $0.10. It's a fibonacci/elliott wave system, so it's very fragile.. I'll have to wait and see if my profits will really plunge... gl to me:D

You quickly learn that in order to guarantee returns in the long-term, you must take steps to control risk. Controlling risk reduces the possibility for gains. Thus, you are statistically limited to a fairly low margin (about 20% per year) under even the best scenarios (like buying under ITE conditions). Even Berkshire Hathaway has a rather low margin over the long term.

Thus, to make a viable living out of trading, you must begin with a huge balance, and even then, it's risky and inconsistent.