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I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:00 am
by EnriqueL
I know it's around the time many will be sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems in legal hiring are not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation is a complete catastrophe; and even the jobs that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000.
You should read and inform yourself. There are many really good resources online. The "scam-blogs", though often ridiculous and hyperbolic, do relay real experiences that people are having.
Before anyone asks: T14, above median, got a job that doesn't pay enough in relation to the cost of tuition. No loans. Still pissed. If I had taken on loans, life would be much, much more difficult.
Ask away. If I don't respond, it is not because I don't want to but because my message is not acceptable for the administrators.
I hope my message gets across. Don't look at the bright side or the dark side. Look at the realistic side of things.
Sincerely,
E.L.
EDIT FOR ALL LURKERS:
Outside of T14: almost certain to be career suicide. Don't go. It's pure insanity or stupidity to go.
T14: you have a greater than 50% chance of ending up in a terrible situation (I avoided that, thank God).
CCN: Chicago and New York are markets that are hurting badly. Both are in austerity states. Both are FIRE zones. Your chances of getting BigLaw are not great, and grads from those schools have a bad reputation among "small law-yers." As far as clerkships go, grads from CCN are lower on the pecking order than HYS. Chicago for academia? You should probably forget it.
HYS: Could be good, could be bad. If you go using debt, think twice and talk to lawyers to see how the practice of law really is. If you go with your own money, it could be a good gamble, but you need to understand that you will have a hard time switching to another profession of law implodes or if you don't like it the grueling lifestyle.
Read up on the Law School Transparency Project, the crisis in small law, the decimation of BigLaw associate classes. You can find it all on Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and the following blogs: Above the Law, Big Debt Small Law, Third Tier Reality, First Tier Toilet, Law School Scam, Shilling Me Softly, But I Did Everything Right, and Scammed Hard.
Finally, and I can't stress this enough, TALK TO YOUNG LAWYERS AND RECENT GRADS.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:04 am
by romothesavior
EnriqueL wrote:Today is the day that many of you will be sending your tuition deposits.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:11 am
by KibblesAndVick
Which T-14 did you attend and how far above median are you? You can be vague if you want but there's a difference between top 10% at HYS, top 40% at CCN, and top 49% at DCNG, and whatever other variations you might think up. What ballpark salary are you getting that doesn't justify the cost of tuition? How/why did you settle on that job?
Unless you provide us with more specific information your not going to convince anyone of anything.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:14 am
by jackalope11
EnriqueL wrote:Before anyone asks: T14, above median, got a job that doesn't pay enough in relation to the cost of tuition. No loans. Still pissed. If I had taken on loans, life would be much, much more difficult.
Sincerely,
E.L.
Respectfully, because I appreciate your opinion and taking the time to offer a heartfelt warning, I wanted to take a moment to answer... I think this bolded portion is indicative of the very attitude that is a problem with many students heading LS.
They don't start law school because they could only see themselves as lawyers, or because they had some overwhelming desire to have a career in the service of the law. Rather, they see an opportunity to make a huge salary at the end. In the case where people see this overwhelming profit motive, you're going to have what we have now, an overprovision of law students relative to the market they serve.
I totally agree that one should not take on a debt burden that they will be unlikely to repay... but I think many people are going to LS to become lawyers because it is their dream, rather than making a cost-benefit analysis of what their earning potential will be outside of school. For those of us in this boat, I think that this should be a remider to consider the consequences of acquiring too much debt while in school...
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:20 am
by ze2151
If everything you wrote here is the God's honest truth, I will run around the city of Atlanta stark naked. Do you view yourself as some sort of message board saint, here to warn us all of what's to come? What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
If you're only speaking to people who are expecting 100k + salaries straight out of school, then fine, blast away. But some of us aren't going to law school simply for a pay day.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:21 am
by KibblesAndVick
Also did you pay for your tuition out of personal savings? Barring that I'm not sure how you could have attended a T-14, graduated with no debt, finished above median, and ended up thinking you aren't being paid enough relative to what you spent (three years of your life but no cash money).
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:22 am
by jackalope11
ze2151 wrote: What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
Spoken like a true economist!
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:23 am
by ze2151
jackalope11 wrote:ze2151 wrote: What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
Spoken like a true economist!
ha, no i'm not smart enough to be an economist. but i'm smart enough to know people don't usually do things out of the goodness of their hearts.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:25 am
by Bildungsroman
Ask away. If I don't respond, it is not because I don't want to but because my message is not acceptable for the administrators
--ImageRemoved--
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:26 am
by romothesavior
EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:29 am
by jackalope11
The LOL WUT Pear cracks me up everytime...
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:31 am
by CambridgeKid
I'm anxious to hear some answers. No debt but no "value" isn't adding up to me either.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:31 am
by ggocat
Poster is probably referring to the JDU crowd whose initial post is doom and gloom "don't go to law school," and then they get banned.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:32 am
by Grizz
romothesavior wrote:EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.
179
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:33 am
by romothesavior
OP has good points overall, and I think we should all listen to his overall point. Taking out 6 figures of debt is a scary proposition and law school offers no guarantees. But seriously, he has no debt and a job yet he is complaining? That's ridiculous.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:33 am
by balzern
rad law wrote:romothesavior wrote:EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.
179
Rad Law I sincerely love reading your posts and this was amazing. Made my Friday so much better, thanks dude haha
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:34 am
by Grizz
romothesavior wrote:But seriously, he has no debt and a job yet he is complaining? That's ridiculous.
This.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:34 am
by Grizz
balzern wrote:rad law wrote:romothesavior wrote:EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.
179
Rad Law I sincerely love reading your posts and this was amazing. Made my Friday so much better, thanks dude haha
Much appreciated balzern, but all credit goes to Romo on this one haha
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:36 am
by EnriqueL
jackalope11 wrote:EnriqueL wrote:Before anyone asks: T14, above median, got a job that doesn't pay enough in relation to the cost of tuition. No loans. Still pissed. If I had taken on loans, life would be much, much more difficult.
Sincerely,
E.L.
Respectfully, because I appreciate your opinion and taking the time to offer a heartfelt warning, I wanted to take a moment to answer... I think this bolded portion is indicative of the very attitude that is a problem with many students heading LS.
They don't start law school because they could only see themselves as lawyers, or because they had some overwhelming desire to have a career in the service of the law. Rather, they see an opportunity to make a huge salary at the end. In the case where people see this overwhelming profit motive, you're going to have what we have now, an overprovision of law students relative to the market they serve.
I totally agree that one should not take on a debt burden that they will be unlikely to repay... but I think many people are going to LS to become lawyers because it is their dream, rather than making a cost-benefit analysis of what their earning potential will be outside of school. For those of us in this boat, I think that this should be a remider to consider the consequences of acquiring too much debt while in school...
Umm...dude? Half (seemed like more, but I'm being conservative) of my freaking class was unemployed when I graduated.
And about how I financed law school: none of your business.
And about my job and why I'm complaining: It might not be a long-term solution. I could find myself doing temp work, which was pushed on us hard (work that used to be the domain of TTT grads). Remember, that's if I'm lucky. I know people who wish they could get some temp work.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:37 am
by EnriqueL
ze2151 wrote:If everything you wrote here is the God's honest truth, I will run around the city of Atlanta stark naked. Do you view yourself as some sort of message board saint, here to warn us all of what's to come? What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
If you're only speaking to people who are expecting 100k + salaries straight out of school, then fine, blast away. But some of us aren't going to law school simply for a pay day.
Everything I wrote is the God's honest truth.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:38 am
by romothesavior
balzern wrote:rad law wrote:romothesavior wrote:EnriqueL wrote:I know it's around the time many will be getting ready to start partying this weekendbe sending the tuition deposits. Please understand that the problems with ED in legal hiringare not cyclical. They are structural. A law degree has become the default post-graduate degree for non-technically trained students. The job situation Losing your mojois a complete catastrophe; and even thejobs women that are available are not worth the three years and $100,000. inevitable humiliation and depression.
179
Rad Law I sincerely love reading your posts and this was amazing. Made my Friday so much better, thanks dude haha
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:39 am
by rundoxierun
EnriqueL wrote:ze2151 wrote:If everything you wrote here is the God's honest truth, I will run around the city of Atlanta stark naked. Do you view yourself as some sort of message board saint, here to warn us all of what's to come? What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
If you're only speaking to people who are expecting 100k + salaries straight out of school, then fine, blast away. But some of us aren't going to law school simply for a pay day.
Everything I wrote is the God's honest truth.
Biggest question here is approximately how much do you make???(so we can understand this comment about it not being worth it even w/o debt)
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:41 am
by jackalope11
It's okay, Romo... You've got plenty of fans too.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:41 am
by quishiclocus
In other words...
Law School: Still not a Get Rich Quick scheme.
The economy is bad. The economy's going to be bad no matter what you do. Preparing yourself for a career you love is always a good move. Preparing yourself for a career in order to get rich is always a bad move. Can we move on already?
The ones who're in this for the dream of the fancy cars and Manhattan apartments aren't going to listen, and the ones who don't care about that would just kill to be in your shoes of being able to do it without debt.
Re: I Definitely Do NOT Recommend Law School
Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:43 am
by EnriqueL
tkgrrett wrote:EnriqueL wrote:ze2151 wrote:If everything you wrote here is the God's honest truth, I will run around the city of Atlanta stark naked. Do you view yourself as some sort of message board saint, here to warn us all of what's to come? What's your angle? That's what I always wonder. What's in it for these kamikaze posters?
If you're only speaking to people who are expecting 100k + salaries straight out of school, then fine, blast away. But some of us aren't going to law school simply for a pay day.
Everything I wrote is the God's honest truth.
Biggest question here is approximately how much do you make???(so we can understand this comment about it not being worth it even w/o debt)
Around $50,000. It's not too bad in itself; but if law schools are charging $150,000 to attend and then misrepresenting the data on starting salaries, then we have a problem. This has all been covered before, you're right, by the JDU and "law school scam" crowd. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a scam right now, but sometimes I wonder whether they know that they are full of shit.