Top Law Schools

EnriqueL wrote:

No, for this reason: students who graduate with debt and without jobs that provide them a hope of paying it back within a reasonable time are the norm. They're not the exception. The guy with $200,000 debt is just has it a few degrees worse than everyone else.

I'm saying it's equally valid because there is only one data point each. It's all anecdotal bullshit. I'm beginning to believe you are flame because nobody that graduated law school could be so stupid. I'm also waiting for a response to the stipend associates and LRAP stuff posted above.

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.[/quote]


I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).

EnriqueL wrote:Ask Away.

EnriqueL wrote:

NayBoer wrote:Did you have post-college work experience before going to law school?

Yes. Is this 20 Questions? You looking for the question where I'll say, "No" and then you'll finally get the chance to say, "See, you should have done XYZ."

I can tell you for a fact though that post-college work experience has nothing to do with this. When I see the guys with Federal positions, CoA clerkships, or V100, whether they worked after college does not predict where they end up.

EnriqueL wrote:

Rock Chalk wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:Because hurting its reputation hurts me.

This is stupid. None of us are hiring partners at law firms. Not talking specifics ruins your credibility, and I'm pretty sure there aren't many of us who actually believe you went T14 debt free. HTH.

You don't believe me that I went to a T14 debt-free? What the...

Having a hard time digesting that one too as I think most denizens of TLS are. Do I think you didn't do so well on the BarBri mid-term and are having a professional career crisis? Yesum.

PKSebben wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

No, for this reason: students who graduate with debt and without jobs that provide them a hope of paying it back within a reasonable time are the norm. They're not the exception. The guy with $200,000 debt is just has it a few degrees worse than everyone else.

I'm saying it's equally valid because there is only one data point each. It's all anecdotal bullshit. I'm beginning to believe you are flame because nobody that graduated law school could be so stupid. I'm also waiting for a response to the stipend associates and LRAP stuff posted above.

I already responded. You're the one who did the a,b,c list? I responded.

sumus romani wrote:

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.


I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).

Credited, but CC still gives you some chance at academia. Not the same as HYS but not inconsequential either.

EnriqueL wrote:

legalease9 wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.

Not at all. It's the weakest argument, and probably the one that's most responsible for people's stupid decisions. "So and so did such and such and became so successful. I can do it too!"

It reminds me of people telling me they don't care about school because Bill Gates dropped out of college.

There are a lot more non-HYS academics than Bill Gates'. Think about it logically. There are over 170 Law schools currently. They can't all fill their entire academic rosters with HYS. HYS certainly has the easiest time sliding into academia, but there are other ways in.

Hence my answer about TTTs. If that's academia, shoot.

Actually, simply glancing at the webpage to which I linked, or perusing the faculty pages of other prestigious law schools, would lead you to realize that even extremely good law schools pull from many more schools than HYS, and in impressive numbers, too. Nobody here is suggesting that FIU or Cooley or other TTT/TTTT schools offer viable opportunities for academia, but T14 schools in general offer excellent rates of entrance into academia. It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

See also: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

sumus romani wrote:

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.

I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).[/quote]

If "flame" means making things up, then I'm not a flame.

EnriqueL wrote:
No, for this reason: students who graduate with debt and without jobs that provide them a hope of paying it back within a reasonable time are the norm. They're not the exception. The guy with $200,000 debt is just has it a few degrees worse than everyone else.

Well, but I can provide anecdotal evidence about people in my area graduating medical school with over twice that debt load, and also not able to find jobs to cover the monthly payments. They have to take lower paying jobs in the beginning and eat ramen noodles, with the hopes that one day they too will enjoy the 20 hour workweeks and country club memberships like the older doctors.

Some even have to struggle for several years after they get the chance to hang out their own shingle.

What does that say about the medical profession? Should everyone quit medical school because immediate financial success may or may not be on the horizon? Where did it become the norm for lawyers to demand hundreds of thousands per year in compensation immediately after graduation? You are currently studying for the bar and making $50K? What other industry allows that, prior to obtaining the required professional license?

EnriqueL wrote:If "flame" means making things up, then I'm not a flame.

Well it's a good thing that's not what flame means or else you might have a point.

sumus romani wrote:

I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).

Nobody's arguing that law professors don't come overwhelming from top schools, just that the definition here of "top schools" extends beyond HYS. RC fail on your part.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml

Edit: hopefully this will meet PKSebben's strict definition of what doesn't amount to "a single data point" or "anecdotal bullshit".

People really make themselves look stupid in these heated internet arguments.

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

[quote="romothesavior"]Come on people, this is TLS, not xoxo or one of those other eyesore websites. Learn how to quote so I don't want to smash my head against the wall when reading.


Fourth of July weekend d00der. RIBS, BEER, AND CIGARS FTMFW!!! I have no time for altruistic D-Bags today!!

EnriqueL wrote:

sumus romani wrote:

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.

I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).

If "flame" means making things up, then I'm not a flame.[/quote]

No, I don't mean to suggest that what you say is false by your own lights. It just seems that the earlier posters got it right in claiming that you are not in a bad situation because of the job market or whatever, but rather, you just don't like being a lawyer. I still find such a sitation scary because so few of us really have an idea of what being a lawyer is like.

EnriqueL wrote:

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

Finance, of course, is the smart move these days. As a profession is is much less cyclical and much more likely to provide relief in a financial crisis/recession. That's why BigLaw firms are declaring bankruptcy and financial firms are just tightening their belts. Wait, that sounds like the opposite of what's true.

sumus romani wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

sumus romani wrote:

balzern wrote:Demonstrably false. Just went to a random T14 school's faculty websiteand clicked on random permanent faculty names. Saw JDs from Chicago, Northwestern, Cornell, Tulane, Kansas, Columbia, Michigan, BU, Georgetown, etc. in addition to a smattering of HYS. Sure, HYS give you a better chance, but those schools don't have a monopoly on opportunity. You, sir, are quite clearly dealing with your own inadequacy issues from your frustrated dreams and are attempting to blame everyone but yourself for your own failings.

Boom! Headshot.

I hate to defend Enriquel., who is clearly a flame. But if you look at academic hires since, say, 2000 or even 1995, you will see that they are pretty much all from top schools, esp. YHS. There are tons of older faculty from TTTs, but very few recent faculty from TTTs. I suppose it has to do with the increased concentration of talent in the top schools (everyone who can go to YHS does go to YHS), and the model of faculty hiring, which now virtually requires that one get a post-graduate fellowship to teach and do research at a law school (which is very top-school oriented).

If "flame" means making things up, then I'm not a flame.

No, I don't mean to suggest that what you say is false by your own lights. It just seems that the earlier posters got it right in claiming that you are not in a bad situation because of the job market or whatever, but rather, you just don't like being a lawyer. I still find such a sitation scary because so few of us really have an idea of what being a lawyer is like.[/quote]

I love the law and its study and practice; but I know that I'm really lucky to be where I am (i.e., employed).

Most 0Ls have no idea what they're getting themselves into. If they knew, I would bet that well over half of them would decide not to go.

Mr. Matlock wrote:

romothesavior wrote:Come on people, this is TLS, not xoxo or one of those other eyesore websites. Learn how to quote so I don't want to smash my head against the wall when reading.


Fourth of July weekend d00der. RIBS, BEER, AND CIGARS FTMFW!!! I have no time for altruistic D-Bags today!!

<3

Bildungsroman wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

Finance, of course, is the smart move these days. As a profession is is much less cyclical and much more likely to provide relief in a financial crisis/recession. That's why BigLaw firms are declaring bankruptcy and financial firms are just tightening their belts. Wait, that sounds like the opposite of what's true.

You're being sarcastic, but finance is hardly cyclical these days. I have a feeling we'll all be standing in the breadline while the financiers continue minting money off our backs.

EnriqueL wrote:

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

Are you kidding me??? You are recommending working for 40-50k over working 160k for THE SAME HOURS?? Law is more "boring" compared to finance?? What world do you live in?!?! Im currently writing this post while waiting for a data warehouse query to run and give me data that i can pull into excel, write some equations and put the data in to build a spreadsheet, print it off and schedule a conference call to discuss a bunch of numbers then later write up some sequel directions to build a standardized report. No way law is significantly more "boring" than that.

jackalope11 wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:
No, for this reason: students who graduate with debt and without jobs that provide them a hope of paying it back within a reasonable time are the norm. They're not the exception. The guy with $200,000 debt is just has it a few degrees worse than everyone else.

Well, but I can provide anecdotal evidence about people in my area graduating medical school with over twice that debt load, and also not able to find jobs to cover the monthly payments. They have to take lower paying jobs in the beginning and eat ramen noodles, with the hopes that one day they too will enjoy the 20 hour workweeks and country club memberships like the older doctors.

Some even have to struggle for several years after they get the chance to hang out their own shingle.

What does that say about the medical profession? Should everyone quit medical school because immediate financial success may or may not be on the horizon? Where did it become the norm for lawyers to demand hundreds of thousands per year in compensation immediately after graduation? You are currently studying for the bar and making $50K? What other industry allows that, prior to obtaining the required professional license?

I appreciate your effort to try to find things about my argument so that you can disbelieve me, but it's pretty obvious that I'm not working right now. I do know what my salary is though. I tend to want to know things like that before I accept a job offer.

EnriqueL wrote:

Rock Chalk wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:Because hurting its reputation hurts me.

This is stupid. None of us are hiring partners at law firms. Not talking specifics ruins your credibility, and I'm pretty sure there aren't many of us who actually believe you went T14 debt free. HTH.

You don't believe me that I went to a T14 debt-free? What the...

Precisely. First you attack the man for selling you a dream then you defend his anonymity in order to protect his reputation. Again, no one ITT is a hiring partner that will steer clear of grads from your "T14" because we once came across one who claimed to be unemployed. How much sense would that make? Since we can all see the stupidity in that, your refusal to disclose the information must have another justification. Hence, lies.

EnriqueL wrote:

Bildungsroman wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

Finance, of course, is the smart move these days. As a profession is is much less cyclical and much more likely to provide relief in a financial crisis/recession. That's why BigLaw firms are declaring bankruptcy and financial firms are just tightening their belts. Wait, that sounds like the opposite of what's true.

You're being sarcastic, but finance is hardly cyclical these days. I have a feeling we'll all be standing in the breadline while the financiers continue minting money off our backs.

Because minting money off of people's backs is the right path in life...

tkgrrett wrote:

EnriqueL wrote:

tkgrrett wrote:I really dont believe OP is a flame so I am going to give OP a chance to redeem herself/himself.

Specific hypo situation:
Im a black male. Numbers are 3.65-3.7 and 175+ LSAT
I ideally want to go into academia but dont mind the idea of working in biglaw.
My likely career option out of undergrad would be working as a Financial Analyst I at a large company and having to go back to school and get my MS/MA/MBA to advance much further.

Should I be applying/going to Law school?

I think you can probably get into Yale if you want. If it's a question between bigLaw and working as an analyst, I would pick the latter UNLESS you LOVE the law. The hours are about the same. Law is considerably more "boring" though compared to finance.

Don't go to law school because of the prestige. Becoming a Lloyd Blankfein or a Dick Parsons after law school is extremely unlikely today.

Are you kidding me??? You are recommending working for 40-50k over working 160k for THE SAME HOURS?? Law is more "boring" compared to finance?? What world do you live in?!?! Im currently writing this post while waiting for a data warehouse query to run and give me data that i can pull into excel, write some equations and put the data in to build a spreadsheet, print it off and schedule a conference call to discuss a bunch of numbers then later right up some sequel directions to build a standardized report. No way law is significantly more "boring" than that.

I know all about Excel. I just assumed that you were working at Morgan Stanley or something sexy. If you're only making 40-50k and you get into HYS and love the law, shoot. Go. Apply. But if you do, understand that you will probably not be able to turn back. If you come out and you're working for $50k like me, you won't go crawling back to your easier Excel job because they won't take you back.

that's another problem with a JD: you become almost unemployable for anything else. Go figure.