I HATE THIS GUY!--Just Let Us Apply/Attend in Peace Forum

[miamiman]

Ok I read your three, nonexistently cited treatises against law school. I'd like to mention that there are a number of upperclassment at every one of the T14s that populate this board. Few, if any to my recollection, have expressed such doom and gloom. I don't think they'd pull any punches, especially in this economy.

[Mr. Matlock]

2) Stop acting like you're the fucking shit

It's all he has. If you take that a way from him, you'll leave him with nothing.

[A'nold]

Ok I read your three, nonexistently cited treatises against law school. I'd like to mention that there are a number of upperclassment at every one of the T14s that populate this board. Few, if any to my recollection, have expressed such doom and gloom. I don't think they'd pull any punches, especially in this economy.

Exactly. These types use these generalized, sweeping statements preying on the uninformed. That's why I hate when avid posters defend these posters. I don't care how much "truth" there is to anything they say. They have an agenda and it's definitely not to help anyone out. It's this weird depression based trying to bring everyone down with them kind of thing. OP is probably another one of these guys that went to Hofstra at sticker, finished about median, and struggled to find/not find legal work, expecting biglaw $$$$ the whole time b/c they themselves "bought into the brochure #'s."

[rando]

Glad I got in early. This thread is looking to entertain me for a while.

Odds on FirstTierToilet and TTTGrad being the same person? 2:1? 3:1?

[Rock Chalk]

Glad I got in early. This thread is looking to entertain me for a while.

Odds on FirstTierToilet and TTTGrad being the same person? 2:1? 3:1?

I've hinted at that possibility for a few of the doom & gloom blog trolls before and a mod verified that they were different IP addresses. Amazing how so many people can be so redundant. They should all just form a committee and present a united front instead of mob trolling.

[romothesavior]

Again, I am waiting to hear how:

1) The "vast majority" of your T14 class does not have a real job. Unless your definition of a real job is Wachtell or bust, this seems to fly in the face of... umm... reality.

2) The fact that most of your biglaw associate buddies will be out of biglaw in <6 years is big news. That's how big law works.

I actually applaud some of you for your scambusting work. But don't bash law schools for exaggerating statistics when you exaggerate just as badly on the other end and fail to cite any sort of evidence when you do so.

[miamiman]

Exactly. These types use these generalized, sweeping statements preying on the uninformed. That's why I hate when avid posters defend these posters. I don't care how much "truth" there is to anything they say. They have an agenda and it's definitely not to help anyone out. It's this weird depression based trying to bring everyone down with them kind of thing. OP is probably another one of these guys that went to Hofstra at sticker, finished about median, and struggled to find/not find legal work, expecting biglaw $$$$ the whole time b/c they themselves "bought into the brochure #'s."

Dude, I think you're slightly overselling your case. A lot of T14 kids don't have jobs. But this isn't news and neither is the suggestion that law may not work out for a lot of people that pursue it. At day's end, unfortunately, this field is a gamble, one that's been magnified by ITE. Scambloggers, perhaps, believe they are doing a public service to dissuade any and all prospectives from taking that fateful leap and, in their minds, falling prey to the "lawschool scam". What they don't realize is that previous results are not an indication of future performance, good or bad, in any market.

For purposes of illustration: If you went to law school in 2008, your prospects seemingly couldn't have been any brighter. You had to work hard NOT to get a biglaw gig out of the T14 (or so the prior classes had demonstrated). Now, in 2010, law students are entering the gate with ITE weighing heavily on their minds. For all the c/o of 2013 knows, OCI in a year may be significantly stronger than it was in 2009. While I have strong doubts as to whether it'll be robust or even an approximation of what it was, I do think it'll be stronger.

The other strain of thought, expressed most forcefully on XO, is that all of these ITE changes are symptoms of systemic stresses upon the profession. In their view, BigLaw has changed forever and class sizes will -- for the indefinite future -- be tiny because clients are savvier and more cost-conscious, lit work can increasingly be offshored, and global demand for legal services broadly will be depressed as the economic climate remains gloomy.

[vanwinkle]

Personally, I'm not going to tolerate "I'm not going to say what I think on TLS, go see it on my blog instead". TLS does not exist to drive traffic to your shitty blog, if you have an opinion, you should be expressing it here. Either 1) build up some credibility as an actual member of TLS before you start thinking people here should care about your blog, or 2) contact TLS about advertising opportunities.

[miamiman]

Personally, I'm not going to tolerate "I'm not going to say what I think on TLS, go see it on my blog instead". TLS does not exist to drive traffic to your shitty blog, if you have an opinion, you should be expressing it here. Either 1) build up some credibility as an actual member of TLS before you start thinking people here should care about your blog, or 2) contact TLS about advertising opportunities.

banhammer?

[cubswin]

Lol @ the several commenters on the blog complaining about the garish background.

[vanwinkle]

Personally, I'm not going to tolerate "I'm not going to say what I think on TLS, go see it on my blog instead". TLS does not exist to drive traffic to your shitty blog, if you have an opinion, you should be expressing it here. Either 1) build up some credibility as an actual member of TLS before you start thinking people here should care about your blog, or 2) contact TLS about advertising opportunities.

banhammer?

Not yet. I'm giving him fair warning first. Banhammer will come if I see his shitty blog URL show up again.

[A'nold]

Exactly. These types use these generalized, sweeping statements preying on the uninformed. That's why I hate when avid posters defend these posters. I don't care how much "truth" there is to anything they say. They have an agenda and it's definitely not to help anyone out. It's this weird depression based trying to bring everyone down with them kind of thing. OP is probably another one of these guys that went to Hofstra at sticker, finished about median, and struggled to find/not find legal work, expecting biglaw $$$$ the whole time b/c they themselves "bought into the brochure #'s."

Dude, I think you're slightly overselling your case. A lot of T14 kids don't have jobs. But this isn't news and neither is the suggestion that law may not work out for a lot of people that pursue it. At day's end, unfortunately, this field is a gamble, one that's been magnified by ITE. Scambloggers, perhaps, believe they are doing a public service to dissuade any and all prospectives from taking that fateful leap and, in their minds, falling prey to the "lawschool scam". What they don't realize is that previous results are not an indication of future performance, good or bad, in any market.

For purposes of illustration: If you went to law school in 2008, your prospects seemingly couldn't have been any brighter. You had to work hard NOT to get a biglaw gig out of the T14 (or so the prior classes had demonstrated). Now, in 2010, law students are entering the gate with ITE weighing heavily on their minds. For all the c/o of 2013 knows, OCI in a year may be significantly stronger than it was in 2009. While I have strong doubts as to whether it'll be robust or even an approximation of what it was, I do think it'll be stronger.

The other strain of thought, expressed most forcefully on XO, is that all of these ITE changes are symptoms of systemic stresses upon the profession. In their view, BigLaw has changed forever and class sizes will -- for the indefinite future -- be tiny because clients are savvier and more cost-conscious, lit work can increasingly be offshored, and global demand for legal services broadly will be depressed as the economic climate remains gloomy.

Maybe, but I would bet you don't have 5 years of experience (unfortunate for me) dealing with these posters. I am not overstating anything actually. Of course there are t14 grads that are jobless. I don't understand why everyone thought or thinks of law school as some guaranteed big $$$$ thing. I can't even think of any other career, besides maybe doctors, that come out of school w/ a guaranteed job, let alone a job making bank.

I agree with you that it is a gamble or risk, but I don't see how this should be weird.

[La Grind Date]

I haven't read all of the previous posts, so forgive me if my post seems silly. That being said, I think you guys are too tough on scambloggers (though some of them are annoying). They make a lot of good points (e.g., a lot of legal tasks might be outsourced in the future, leading to even fewer jobs for American lawyers).

I welcome their continued input.

After all, law school does cost an enormous amount of money, & I believe scambloggers when they say that being overeducated will probably shut one off from tons of non-legal jobs.

[Matthies]

You know I'm always amazed when I read these "scamblogs" they inevitably make the poster sound entitled and quick to place the blame for their misfortunes elsewhere. Write lengthy of I did everything right, send out 100 resumes and got no job etc. The thing I find odd it that these bloggers have the time, writing ability, and passion about a subject that, unfortunately would turn off any hiring partner from interviewing for a legal job. yet there have been many articles in the trade magazines (you know the ones with real journalists not gossip sites like ATL) about success stories of lawyers using blogs to cover a legal subject, becoming well know as an expert in the area of law and getting offers for permanent employment from it (or clients for their practice).

Of course this sort of kills the "woe is me the 'establishment" fucked me so now I should "warn" others so they don't fall into the self pity trap I'm in. Take your blog skills and truing them into some that makes your money or gets you a job, doing that, showing the lemmenings OCI and mass mailing are stupid plans for finding a job, and your proactive advice, rather than the reactive advice your giving now, might be far more helpful. Not to mention something original in the law blogosphir.

Finally its a SCHOOL, not an employment agency, you don't hear Philishpy grad saying my school faile me becuase I can't find a job. The schools JOB is provide you an education, and a JD. Carear services, Fin Aid off, student orgs are all secondary and there to help, but are not the primary focus of the school. Until law stdutes start to realize they really need to be finiding jobs on thier own from day one, each year thos who graduated from good schools without any job are going to defualt to the school screwed me, the market screwed me, Oboma screwed me, or whatever the gruopthink of the momonet it that they can occupy themsleves with as they sedn out 500 mail merged unsolcited letter to firms then get upsent when the equivilant of junkmail does not end up getting them the $160k job they think the deserve. There are winners and losers in the law school gamble, the winers don't stop trying every avaebue until they find the job they want, the looser give up and look for someone to blame. Its too bad becuase a lot of these bloggers could tturn thier internet/social networking thing in a legal carear if they put the effort it takes into do so, rather than jump on the system scamed me and I'm a victome bandwagon.

[vanwinkle]

I haven't read all of the previous posts. That being said, I think you guys are too tough on scambloggers (though some of them are annoying). They make a lot of good points (e.g., a lot of legal tasks might be outsourced in the future, leading to even fewer jobs for American lawyers.)

I welcome their continued input.

I welcome the input of anyone willing to share their opinion on TLS. However, I do not welcome someone that makes you go to another site, where they profit from getting you to go there. It's not what they're saying, but the way in which they're saying it; that is, to make money off of TLS readers and not just to share their opinion.

They can say anything they want here, but they need to say it here.

[FirstTierToilet]

I haven't read all of the previous posts. That being said, I think you guys are too tough on scambloggers (though some of them are annoying). They make a lot of good points (e.g., a lot of legal tasks might be outsourced in the future, leading to even fewer jobs for American lawyers.)

I welcome their continued input.

I welcome the input of anyone willing to share their opinion on TLS. However, I do not welcome someone that makes you go to another site, where they profit from getting you to go there. It's not what they're saying, but the way in which they're saying it; that is, to make money off of TLS readers and not just to share their opinion.

They can say anything they want here, but they need to say it here.

I have heard that you have banned people permanently for speaking their minds.

[dresden doll]

ITT: JDU'ers and aspiring JDU'ers show their skills at putting their own tiny pink failures on others.

Honestly, you're just screwing yourself over if you really think that. You've been here awhile- you should know better at this point. Stop pretending to be a lemming...

Calling every person who comes on here to help 0Ls out a JDUer isn't helping.

PSA: It's not just JDU, even the mainstream media has picked up that law school is increasingly becoming a losing proposition.

It's fine if you think otherwise, I kindof do too. But stop pretending that everything is okay. If you don't go in with the mindset that you're going to have to fight tooth and nail for your dream, you're setting yourself up for failure.

I like TLS and its helped me a lot over this past year. I also appreciate all the scam bloggers for letting us know how hard it is out there. You should too...

Lulz. I've heard this same crap for about 5 years. It's not the economy that brings these types out of the woodwork. They are depressed b/c THEY apparently made a bad decision by attending law school, usually for $$$$, when there was never really any chance of that to begin with. You never see, with the exception of very, very few, public (not anonymous JDU types) tier 1 or reasonable law school grads in the top 1/2 to 1/3 of their classes posting about how law is the worst decision you could ever make and making it a personal vendetta to try to make themselves feel better by "warning others" about the horror that is law while advocating that people become garbagemen or plumbers. If you were actually serious above, then congrats for buying into all the crap. I am a realist, not a doom and gloom or sunshine and daisies kind of guy. Don't believe everything you read.

You find it implausible that a T1 median student might regret going to law school for reasons completely related to economy?

Really, A'nold. I've always liked you but I have a hard time believing you sincerely think that. If so, your own success in law school has blinded you to the fact that 95 percent of your classmates don't enjoy the class rank you've got and will not have the opportunities you have acquired against odds (95 percent odds, to be specific, assuming I'm right and you're in the top 5 percent of your class right now).

[miamiman]

Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.

[dresden doll]

I haven't read all of the previous posts. That being said, I think you guys are too tough on scambloggers (though some of them are annoying). They make a lot of good points (e.g., a lot of legal tasks might be outsourced in the future, leading to even fewer jobs for American lawyers.)

I welcome their continued input.

I welcome the input of anyone willing to share their opinion on TLS. However, I do not welcome someone that makes you go to another site, where they profit from getting you to go there. It's not what they're saying, but the way in which they're saying it; that is, to make money off of TLS readers and not just to share their opinion.

They can say anything they want here, but they need to say it here.

I have heard that you have banned people permanently for speaking their minds.

He's a constant First Amendment violator. I mean, he won't even let people advertise other sites by starting threads at their leisure around here! What a nerve.

[goawaybee]

I am always fascinated by posts like this.

people make poor decisions and do what society/parents projected was the best way to get ahead in the world. Nothing shocking. If they end up 200k in the hole and can't find a way to service their debt and life a decent life then blammo. They have learned an invaluable lesson. It is a shame to see loads of young people have to face reality but regardless of their level of education or career path they will indeed have to face reality at some point in their lives whether at 22,35 or 65.

The legal field is competitive, WHOA that is shocking. Kind of reminds me of every other profession or industry in existence. Some a little more or less competitive but if you want to get ahead you have to bust ass, eat some pooh every now and again...even then nothing is written in stone. Entitled to nothing.

Gotta hustle. All the facts and figures come across as just that to most people. Until they are living that reality it is just a scary little concept that surfaces every now and again. I don't see why everyone has to spew out with such rage to attempt to point out the obvious. Some will rise to the occasion and some will fail. Darwinism style. It is a fantastic little thing going on in the world.

If you bite off more than you can chew, you have to learn to call it and get out of the game. Now if people get into big law to pay off their loans, stack a few chips and then head off to the pasture that appears a bit more green, right on. Makes room for the new herd of sheep to enter. Some will be slaughtered some will be spared.

I just don't see why everyone gets so worked up about it. It isn't community service. Handle yours and let those destined for failure fail. Spend your time getting ahead. Amazing what the internet does. Imagine 20 years ago. You had a few print publications, TV and the newspaper. That is what you were working off of. Just get out on the field and play the game. Shake some hands, bust some ass and see what comes of it.

blah blah.

If you want to face reality before attending LS, go for it. It is cold and hard. If it is all about T14, getting into big law to service debt accrued at T14 or higher only to wander off course after 6 years....WTF

Wash, rinse and repeat it. For a decade. Things will all get sorted out. Law school is a business. We have to keep the money circulating. I assume they are fairly profitable, Casino money.

You can either pay them or exit without owing anybody a cent. Have fun with it. If money and elitist BS is your game the real world will serve you up. worry not. One day you will look in the mirror, say F this and find a more enjoyable way to navigate your day to day.

Live a good life, if you allow the negativity to penetrate it will consume you. You can mask it as reality but that is a tad blanket like. To each his/her own. Everyones story is different, sure maybe there are trends but no reason to wake up every day dissatisfied and go and piss in the rest of the worlds corn flakes. Not like everyone is running up in your has jumping on your bed and droppin' drawers and giving you a shower everyday when the alarm goes off.

- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.

[FirstTierToilet]

Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.

This guy gets it.

[romothesavior]

As much as I love matthies, I do have to agree with miamiman on this one. There are students without jobs from very good schools who did everything right, and I do think when schools distort data and keep the truth from students, there has to be some burden placed on the school.

[miamiman]

- miami- they don't really have much of responsibility other than to take the checks, put them in the bank and pay their employees. I would like to think otherwise but reality seems to say they are a tool, you can use them or the roles can be reversed.

No, they have an obligation, I'd imagine legally, to present honest employment outcomes. Right now, many schools do not meet that standard. When Hofstra Law tells you their median private practice salary is $160k, there is something more than a little fucked up about what law schools are able to get away with.

[romothesavior]

Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.

This guy gets it.

Most of us get it. That's why we really don't care what you have to say.

[traehekat]

Matthies, I have to politely disagree. This isn't a grad program in philosophy. This is a professional school with a tuition burden that could buy you a (nice) home. As such, I think there is a fair burden on the school to place its graduates into decent jobs.

When law schools charge insane tuition sums and then fraudulently distort their employment data, I think the outrage is justified. So, no, I don't think it's fair to say that law school are entirely upholding their end of the bargain.

This guy gets it.

Most of us get it. That's why we really don't care what you have to say.

Exactly. Blogging about it doesn't make you some savior.