Application Time: 3.75 vs. 3.8 Forum

[TheOcho]

I just took the June LSAT and considering my practice scores, I'm anticipating something in the 164-168 range. I currently have a 3.75 GPA. After completing my summer classes and taking 15 credits next fall, I should have a 3.8. I'm interested in hearing opinions on putting in my applications before the end of fall semester or waiting until my fall grades come out (December), when my GPA will have increased. I want to attend a T-30 school (reasonable expectation with these numbers?) and money is obviously a bonus. If I applied early and was waitlisted at 3.75, would a letter indicating my 4.0 fall semester and fresh 3.8 increase my odds?

Ideal Schools:

1. Notre Dame
2. Minnesota
3. BC
4. BU

[Tanicius]

If you got a 164 you'll have a fighting chance at several of these schools. If you get a 168 you'll be selling yourself short unless you go there with scholarships.

[TheOcho]

Thanks. A 164 might warrant a retake, considering I have frequently scored much higher. My dilemma is about when to send in my applications. I've heard that an applicants prospects at acceptance are statistically greater when submitted earlier. I'm not sure if it's worth waiting for my fall grades to come out before applying if it will be a greater advantage to just get my applications in early.

[Haribo]

Apply early, use better grades in an LOCI.

[Dany]

This is all going to be my opinion, but I don't think there's any benefit in waiting to apply. A 3.75 is above the 75th percentile at ND and BC, and it's well above median at BU and Minnesota. Since your GPA is already extremely strong for these schools, it looks like your LSAT will be the deciding factor. A 3.8 could be good LOCI material if need be, but its initial impact (vs. a 3.75) will be virtually nonexistent.

Get those apps in early, and good luck!

[TheOcho]

Thanks for the responses. I will undoubtedly use this advice to apply early.

[stratocophic]

That GPA and a 168 will net you major bank at WUSTL and UIUC. Vandy would likely bite as well.

[romothesavior]

I had a 3.75/168. My cycle:

Cornell- Accept
WUSTL- Accept w/75k
UIUC- Accept w/90k
Vandy- Accept w/60k
Boston U- Accept (Withdrew before scholly was given)
GULC- Waitlist
Duke- Reject
Michigan- Waitlist (I applied here with my ED)

If you are considering UMN and ND, there is no reason not to apply to UIUC and WUSTL. Also apply to Vanderbilt.

Where do you want to practice?

[TheOcho]

I'm biased towards practicing in the Midwest or the East Coast. I'd like to leave the area (Midwest) for a while, but having a degree that gives me the option of returning is an added bonus. I don't have much of an interest in the West coast.

It sounds like with a 168 I would have some pretty solid options, especially due to the $ that seems available for those numbers. After reading your post I would consider a retake if I thought I could increase my score enough so I wouldn't have to attend at sticker.

My cousin just got into Cornell with essentially a full-ride for graduate level economics (or something like that). Wouldn't be bad attending law school with family attending the same university. I was initially under the impression I would need higher than a 168 for that to be a realistic possibility (at Cornell). Feels good knowing others have been accepted with $ with numbers similar to mine.

Which of those schools would give me the most flexibility as far as employment on the East coast + a possible return to Minneapolis/St. Paul?

[romothesavior]

I'm biased towards practicing in the Midwest or the East Coast. I'd like to leave the area (Midwest) for a while, but having a degree that gives me the option of returning is an added bonus. I don't have much of an interest in the West coast.

It sounds like with a 168 I would have some pretty solid options, especially due to the $ that seems available for those numbers. After reading your post I would consider a retake if I thought I could increase my score enough so I wouldn't have to attend at sticker.

My cousin just got into Cornell with essentially a full-ride for graduate level economics (or something like that). Wouldn't be bad attending law school with family attending the same university. I was initially under the impression I would need higher than a 168 for that to be a realistic possibility (at Cornell). Feels good knowing others have been accepted with $ with numbers similar to mine.

Which of those schools would give me the most flexibility as far as employment on the East coast + a possible return to Minneapolis/St. Paul?

A T13. Or maybe Vanderbilt. Aside from that, you're looking at very strong regional schools, but I wouldn't bank on making it east. WUSTL and UIUC both place well in the Midwest and decent out East if you have the grades.

But honestly, you should really think about whether or not moving back and forth is wise. Say you work on the east coast for a few years and build up a good set of connections and clients. Do you really want to just throw that away and start fresh in a new market? And you'll probably be in your 30s in that point and (depending on your personal goals) possibly married with kids.

Personally, I would just pick a school based on one market and stick with that place. But that's just me.

[TheOcho]

I absolutely agree. I was thinking more along the lines of, "I've spent three years out East for law school and I can't stand it here, can my degree place me well back in the Midwest?" Even so, I think your advice still applies. I suppose I'll apply to a range of schools, see where I can get in and the $ available, and then worry about the aforementioned variables.

[romothesavior]

I absolutely agree. I was thinking more along the lines of, "I've spent three years out East for law school and I can't stand it here, can my degree place me well back in the Midwest?" Even so, I think your advice still applies. I suppose I'll apply to a range of schools, see where I can get in and the $ available, and then worry about the aforementioned variables.

TITCR. 8-10 applications is about the right amount. Apply to a few locks, a few targets, and a few reaches. (I refuse to call them safeties because you should never go to a safety... but you could go to a lock if you get the right $$$ amount. Never apply to a lock that you wouldn't attend, but feel free to apply to some reaches that you wouldn't attend so that you can use them as leverage in scholarship negotiations.)

Also, apply to a decent mix of schools geographically, if you are unsure of where you want to be. I applied to BU even though I didn't think I wanted to go there. But the fee waiver made it free, and I realized I might change my mind if I got in with big scholarship money.

If you can get a 168, this is my recommended list of schools (very similar to mine):

-Minnesota
-Illinois
-Wash U
-Vanderbilt
-Cornell
-Michigan or UVA (Perhaps even ED if you really would like going to one of these and you don't mind paying sticker)
-Fordham (If you have any interest in NYC, definitely apply. You will get money)
-BU/BC (Whichever is free to apply to. They are so similar that it really makes no sense to apply to both unless you really want Boston)
-George Washington
-Notre Dame
-GULC (Part-time is probably your only real shot. And I wouldn't go here at sticker anyways, but different strokes for different folks, I suppose.)

If you don't get upper-160s on the LSAT and you think you can, re-take in September. You have plenty of time to study, take the test, and get your apps out early. I did the June take/Sept. re-take and it worked out great.

[TheOcho]

That's very helpful. Is it taboo to ask where you decided to attend?

[romothesavior]

That's very helpful. Is it taboo to ask where you decided to attend?

After the flood of abrasive new TLSers in recent weeks (see: scallywaggums), it is so refreshing to see a new poster with some common sense, restraint, and respect. Thank you, sir.

It is not taboo at all! I am attending Washington University in St. Louis (barring a surprise acceptance off of the Michigan waitlist).

[TheOcho]

After the flood of abrasive new TLSers in recent weeks (see: scallywaggums), it is so refreshing to see a new poster with some common sense, restraint, and respect. Thank you, sir.

You would think in a forum composed largely of very intelligent and usually helpful individuals, this would be the norm rather than the exception. Dang. In any sense, you're very welcome!

Well, congratulations! That's a great school. Hopefully you'll get a nice surprise from Michigan as well. I look forward to "copying" your application strategy and if there is a God he will bless me with similar acceptances...haha.

[BenJ]

Apply early. No one will reject or waitlist you with a 3.75 before February who wouldn't have done the same with a 3.8. Almost all rejections and waitlists come out well after you'd have your fall grades in.

[MusicNutMeggie]

I was a 3.8/168, so in case you're curious, potential numbers twin, I ended up with:
-full tuition at UIUC and WUSTL
-half tuition at Fordham and USC
-non-resident tuition exemption plus $7,000/yr from UT
-$2500/year from UCLA (plus I'm a CA resident)

I got into Cornell and NU (attending NU), and waitlisted at Duke (withdrew), GULC (SPWL, withdrew), and Columbia (pending).

HTH-- Good luck on the LSAT and with your cycle!

[romothesavior]

After the flood of abrasive new TLSers in recent weeks (see: scallywaggums), it is so refreshing to see a new poster with some common sense, restraint, and respect. Thank you, sir.

You would think in a forum composed largely of very intelligent and usually helpful individuals, this would be the norm rather than the exception. Dang. In any sense, you're very welcome!

Well, congratulations! That's a great school. Hopefully you'll get a nice surprise from Michigan as well. I look forward to "copying" your application strategy and if there is a God he will bless me with similar acceptances...haha.

Feel free to PM me if you need any advice or just wanna shoot the shit.

And MusicNut... how did you get full tuition at WUSTL????

[TheOcho]

Thanks for all the input. Assuming NU is Northwestern, I had heard rumors they are pretty biased towards those with a few years work experience or are a few years out of UG. Truth?

CA resident? Hope your cheering for the Lakeshow right now.

Romo, I'll PM you when I get my LSAT score back. However, any harm in drafting some personal statements at this time? I'd rather get as many (assuming I customize them a bit) out of the way before fall semester as I can. Thoughts?

[Dany]

Assuming NU is Northwestern, I had heard rumors they are pretty biased towards those with a few years work experience or are a few years out of UG. Truth?

It's not really "bias" - it's a prerequisite of sorts.

In addition to seeking students with strong academic qualifications, Northwestern Law is unique in placing strong emphasis in selecting students who also demonstrate:

[*]strong interpersonal, communication, and teamwork skills
[*]at least two years of post-undergraduate, full-time work experience (although we will admit a small number of students with less)
[*]leadership potential

About 95% of their incoming class has WE, but some people get in without it, albeit a very small number. Most people without WE just don't want to waste the application fee, since they value it so much.

[Alpine]

Depending on how my October test goes (my average is right about 168), TheOcho, we might be number twins.

Like said before, apply early and update your fall grades in a LOCI. That's what I plan to do, except, I won't be able to get my application in until November, unfortunately.

Other than that, I don't really have anything to say that would serve as advice since I will be primarily targeting the other Coast. Good luck.

[TheOcho]

Alpine, it appears that Romo had significant success putting his apps in after the October test. Unless you just want the get them out of the way early, I wouldn't necessarily fret about it. In either case, good luck. What are your top choices?

[Alpine]

Yeah, that was good news to hear, I hope the same occurs for me as well.

As far as schools go, these are my thoughts (though it could change drastically depending on the LSAT):

Boalt, though my GPA is definitely lacking.
Chicago.
Michigan.
UCLA.
UT.
U Washington.

[TheOcho]

Chicago, very nice. I visited their campus last summer and loved it. If I thought I could get in, I might apply. I have a minor economics fetish and that would be a perfect fit.

[romothesavior]

Yeah, that was good news to hear, I hope the same occurs for me as well.

As far as schools go, these are my thoughts (though it could change drastically depending on the LSAT):

Boalt, though my GPA is definitely lacking.
Chicago.
Michigan.
UCLA.
UT.
U Washington.

Chicago and Boalt are very unlikely unless you crack 170+. Michigan is very doable with a 169-170, and you'll have an outside shot at 168. You should be in at the rest.

Why are your schools so widely varying? You should not just be throwing darts at the US News rankings. UT, UCLA, and Washington will offer very different markets.