UC Irvine School of Law's 2nd class statistics is out Forum

[SaintClarence27]

The real problem is this:

Class of 2011 will have ~45K grads competing for ~30K jobs.

Class of 2012 will have ~45K + UCI's 60 grads competing for ~30K jobs. Those students would have gone somewhere else, sure, but instead spots at, say, Alabama opened up. The open spots at Alabama went to people who would have gone to ASU, opening up more spots. And on down the line.

Basically, it filters down to Cooley. The 60 new grads are coming from Cooley. That's my issue. NO NEW LAW SCHOOLS (and close about half of the tier 4). Then start shrinking class sizes.

For the record, I feel the same way about other schools increasing their class size.

[keg411]

They should get rid of the TTT private schools in CA (and everywhere in general). Mediocre schools that lead to unemployed lawyers. I'd argue if a new school can do what UCI is doing then it is "worth it". I hope the new UMass school takes a nod from the UCI model because New England does need a public law school (though it will likely kill Northeastern for good; not that I necessarily have a problem with that since Northeastern charges outrageous tuition for a PI school).

[SaintClarence27]

They should get rid of the TTT private schools in CA (and everywhere in general). Mediocre schools that lead to unemployed lawyers. I'd argue if a new school can do what UCI is doing then it is "worth it". I hope the new UMass school takes a nod from the UCI model because New England does need a public law school (though it will likely kill Northeastern for good; not that I necessarily have a problem with that since Northeastern charges outrageous tuition for a PI school).

New thread where we volunteer kicking out law schools, and have the TLS crowd vote?

[270910]

They should get rid of the TTT private schools in CA (and everywhere in general). Mediocre schools that lead to unemployed lawyers. I'd argue if a new school can do what UCI is doing then it is "worth it". I hope the new UMass school takes a nod from the UCI model because New England does need a public law school (though it will likely kill Northeastern for good; not that I necessarily have a problem with that since Northeastern charges outrageous tuition for a PI school).

New thread where we volunteer kicking out law schools, and have the TLS crowd vote?

We can keep 50, because while 25-50 wouldn't be worth keeping now, removing 150 law schools from below them should free up some jobs

[YCrevolution]

..

[motiontodismiss]

They should get rid of the TTT private schools in CA (and everywhere in general). Mediocre schools that lead to unemployed lawyers. I'd argue if a new school can do what UCI is doing then it is "worth it". I hope the new UMass school takes a nod from the UCI model because New England does need a public law school (though it will likely kill Northeastern for good; not that I necessarily have a problem with that since Northeastern charges outrageous tuition for a PI school).

New thread where we volunteer kicking out law schools, and have the TLS crowd vote?

We can keep 50, because while 25-50 wouldn't be worth keeping now, removing 150 law schools from below them should free up some jobs

The ABA should pull accreditation in 2013 (graduate the current committed class and they're done). After I go through the process for 2012.

[ViP]

"We will create a law school that will offer a first rate legal education"

See? No tacky pandering to USNWR. Can't you see that the tail (USNWR) is wagging the dog (UCI)? It doesn't have to be like that. UCI could quietly go about building a great school, offer no schlarships, and end up in exactly the same place (a great school).

This is so incredibly bogus.

A first rate legal education= top professors, top students, amazing student-faculty ratio.

In what universe does "first rate legal education" equate to "US News domination"?

I think we're just talking past each other here or something.

I could give two shits about getting a "first rate legal education." I want a first rate job. Fostering my passion for the law and developing as an intellectual is nice and all, but law school is a professional school first and foremost.

Even the lowest ranked schools have good professors, good facilities, and even some decently bright students.Whittier and Cooley and Detroit Mercy probably have great professors and good classroom experiences, but I don't think people should go there.

How is this a response to my post? I'm confused. I was responding to Dante's post, which has nothing to do with what you said.

[Chad]

Gotta say I think Irvine is destined for T20, if not T14. Chemerinsky is a family friend and he is extremely dedicated to creating an outstanding program. In addition to full and half-rides to everyone who accepts, they get subsidized housing in the heart of Orange Country (complete with in ground pools and jacuzzi's) and excellent health benefits. Sure, the T5 students will probably pass in order to attend a school they know is a "sure thing", but a lot of other students will be willing to take the minor risk for the rewards. Especially if they want constitutional law, a field in which Chemerinsky excelled and has numerous close connections. Assuming of course that he would use those connections to improve the placement of his initial grads (which he most certainly would).

[SaintClarence27]

Gotta say I think Irvine is destined for T20, if not T14. Chemerinsky is a family friend and he is extremely dedicated to creating an outstanding program. In addition to full and half-rides to everyone who accepts, they get subsidized housing in the heart of Orange Country (complete with in ground pools and jacuzzi's) and excellent health benefits. Sure, the T5 students will probably pass in order to attend a school they know is a "sure thing", but a lot of other students will be willing to take the minor risk for the rewards. Especially if they want constitutional law, a field in which Chemerinsky excelled and has numerous close connections. Assuming of course that he would use those connections to improve the placement of his initial grads (which he most certainly would).

1) What rewards are you talking about?

2) With numbers comparable to, say, Notre Dame, why would it have *any* chance at T14?

[ruleser]

The widening gap suggests they may have needed to rely more heavily on splitters this go around

Don't know if that's true this time, but I think that's a benefit that will serve UCI going forward - every T20 CA school is extremely GPA heavy. You have a better chance at many T14's (UVA, Cornell, UMich, NU) with mediocre GPAs than you do at UCLA, USC, Berkeley (and of course Stanford) There really isn't a top school in CA that takes the 3.2 170's en masse like those T14s, or like WUSTL, U of Ill, GW, etc. That really leaves open the op going forward for UCI to keep its numbers high by being the only CA op to attend a high T1 school if you have GPA issues. Davis/Hastings are the closest competition, but geographically there's no real comp. OC has 3 mil people, LA 4 mil, San Diego a mil, and there was no T1 to serve splitters.

[imchuckbass58]

Gotta say I think Irvine is destined for T20, if not T14. Chemerinsky is a family friend and he is extremely dedicated to creating an outstanding program. In addition to full and half-rides to everyone who accepts, they get subsidized housing in the heart of Orange Country (complete with in ground pools and jacuzzi's) and excellent health benefits. Sure, the T5 students will probably pass in order to attend a school they know is a "sure thing", but a lot of other students will be willing to take the minor risk for the rewards. Especially if they want constitutional law, a field in which Chemerinsky excelled and has numerous close connections. Assuming of course that he would use those connections to improve the placement of his initial grads (which he most certainly would).

They are currently offering half scholarships to everyone, and can only attract 90 students with T30-ish numbers. What makes you think when they expand to 200 students they'll be able to attract significantly better students to give them T14-esque numbers?

Chemerinsky is great, but nobody really cares how awesome the dean of your school is. Most T14 schools have a dozen scholars that are at or close to Chemerinsky's stature, and many more professors that are more prominent than the rest of the UCI faculty.

I'm not trying to knock UCI - I think it will do quite well and many students will have great experiences there. But to suggest it will crack the T14 in the next 20 years is laughable.

[imchuckbass58]

Do they have to bring it up to a certain size? It seems like they could absolutely crush it in the rankings if they kept each 1L class to like 100 students.

In all likelihood, you cannot sustain a law school with only 100 students. There are big economies of scale. 200 students do not require double the faculty of 100 students. 200 students do not require double the physical plant space of 100 students. An average admissions office/registrar/student services office, etc. can just as easily deal with 200 students as 100 students with similar staffing.

UCI is in all likelihood currently hemmoraging money on an operating basis and being kept afloat only through private donations or state subsidies. This is fine for now, but eventually the school will have to become close to self-supporting on tuition alone (especially given that it does not have the same alumni base).

[S de Garmeaux]

I think that I read somewhere they wanted this year's class around 80-85. they don't have seat deposits, just deadlines where you tell them you're still in. its possible a lot of these are students riding waitlists at T14. might just be my hope talking since im on the UCI waitlist.

[erniesto]

The ABA needs to crack down on this

This made me giggle. You are referring to the same organization that decided it was ethical to outsource American legal matters to the slumdogs of India.

[b.gump81]

has there ever been an organized push for the ABA to control this supply and demand issue?....just curious

[270910]

has there ever been an organized push for the ABA to control this supply and demand issue?....just curious

No, but there was an anti-trust law suit against the ABA - the after effects of which we are still feeling.

That's the problem: they got burned for being over-protectionalist, so now that they have the opposite problem there's much less power/political will to fix it.

[JoyceL1986]

[strike]people say[/strike] Lower ranked grads in so cal say UCI is acting like a douche
you are basically arguing that acting like a douche is necessary for success (as far as law schools go)

Fixed

[ruleser]

They are currently offering half scholarships to everyone, and can only attract 90 students with T30-ish numbers. What makes you think when they expand to 200 students they'll be able to attract significantly better students to give them T14-esque numbers?

Chemerinsky is great, but nobody really cares how awesome the dean of your school is. Most T14 schools have a dozen scholars that are at or close to Chemerinsky's stature, and many more professors that are more prominent than the rest of the UCI faculty.

I'm not trying to knock UCI - I think it will do quite well and many students will have great experiences there. But to suggest it will crack the T14 in the next 20 years is laughable.

I'd agree that UCI will be more T20ish than T14 - if UCLA hasn't cracked T14, don't see UCI doing it soon - it'll be a west coast WUSTL/GW/BU.

The one thing I will say, it will become T14 over time. Why? The campus. Best campus ever, actually. Under-market-priced on campus apartments, 2 min walk to the LS, with hot tubs and pools, in a climate you can use all year round, in a safe clean town. Who would choose cold Michigan, or crowded Berkely, downtown USC, never mind Tenderloin Hastings, cold WUSTL - once the pics start to spread of LS students cracking the books mid feb sitting in a jacuzzi with a drink in one hand, the law school off in the short distance, I think it becomes T6. Obviously just a joke, but doesn't suck/hurt.

[JoyceL1986]

I chuckle at the unfounded negative sentiments toward UC Irvine from Southwestern 1Ls. Everyone else is excited for Irvine. Irvine is a legitimate T20 contender. I hope they piss everyone off and make T17.

[NayBoer]

On behalf of economics, I feel the need to point out that this is not a tragedy of the commons. That term is generally used when an unowned (or commonly owned) resource is not regulated in its exploitation, and is needlessly despoiled or exhausted. Like overfishing, overhunting public lands, etc. Too many LS seats isn't a tragedy of the commons, it's just competition.

But there is an argument to be made that there's a LS bubble caused by overfunding from the government (starting schools, but mostly from securing loans) and irrational exuberance on the part of 0Ls.

[Danneskjöld]

They are currently offering half scholarships to everyone, and can only attract 90 students with T30-ish numbers. What makes you think when they expand to 200 students they'll be able to attract significantly better students to give them T14-esque numbers?

Chemerinsky is great, but nobody really cares how awesome the dean of your school is. Most T14 schools have a dozen scholars that are at or close to Chemerinsky's stature, and many more professors that are more prominent than the rest of the UCI faculty.

I'm not trying to knock UCI - I think it will do quite well and many students will have great experiences there. But to suggest it will crack the T14 in the next 20 years is laughable.

I'd agree that UCI will be more T20ish than T14 - if UCLA hasn't cracked T14, don't see UCI doing it soon - it'll be a west coast WUSTL/GW/BU.

The one thing I will say, it will become T14 over time. Why? The campus. Best campus ever, actually. Under-market-priced on campus apartments, 2 min walk to the LS, with hot tubs and pools, in a climate you can use all year round, in a safe clean town. Who would choose cold Michigan, or crowded Berkely, downtown USC, never mind Tenderloin Hastings, cold WUSTL - once the pics start to spread of LS students cracking the books mid feb sitting in a jacuzzi with a drink in one hand, the law school off in the short distance, I think it becomes T6. Obviously just a joke, but doesn't suck/hurt.

If people cared about the weather where they go to LS, then Cornell would be T4. Fact is, people want job placement and prestige. UCI is a long way from establishing that they have staying power in either.

[ruleser]

If people cared about the weather where they go to LS, then Cornell would be T4. Fact is, people want job placement and prestige. UCI is a long way from establishing that they have staying power in either.

Fair enough - UCLA would have been T14 long ago if weather was a big factor.

[JoyceL1986]

If Irvine plays its cards right with the Top 9 faculty and all that money they have in securing top notch students for the next 4-5 years, it has a better, fresher shot at T14 than other UCs.

[Borhas]

[strike]people say[/strike] Lower ranked grads in so cal say UCI is acting like a douche
you are basically arguing that acting like a douche is necessary for success (as far as law schools go)

Fixed

there is no school ranked lower than UCI

[270910]

On behalf of economics, I feel the need to point out that this is not a tragedy of the commons. That term is generally used when an unowned (or commonly owned) resource is not regulated in its exploitation, and is needlessly despoiled or exhausted. Like overfishing, overhunting public lands, etc. Too many LS seats isn't a tragedy of the commons, it's just competition.

But there is an argument to be made that there's a LS bubble caused by overfunding from the government (starting schools, but mostly from securing loans) and irrational exuberance on the part of 0Ls.

On behalf of myself since I posted the link, law school jobs are a fixed resource. There are more people coming out of law schools every year than there are jobs already.

UCI is a timber company, not a tree.