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I was over at my girlfriend's house last week and her friend said she is going to law school like myself. She is very excited. I asked her where she is going and she said Cooley... at sticker. Her LSAT was a 146 and she did not wanna retake and I didnt ask about the GPA but I assume it was fairly low. I asked (being as delicate as possible of course) if she was comfortable paying so much for Cooley and she said "Sure, I'll make that back in a year or two after I graduate." The sad thing is, I think this is happening all over the US, students are taking T4's at sticker or close to it because they want a law degree from anywhere just to say they have one. I, unlike many people on TLS, feel that paying sticker for a fairly prestigious law school (at least within its market) is fine, but not for Cooley or some other T4 trash. Do people not have common sense? How in the world do these people pay off their loans? Mathematically, without any connections, I dont see them ever paying off their loans, so how does their life go after graduation?

Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

Logic fail.

DanInALionsDen wrote:

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

Logic fail.

+1

twaswoo wrote:

DanInALionsDen wrote:

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

Logic fail.

+1

+2. Wasn't the purpose of this post concerned with people not thinking...

There is a valid point to be made, however, that some people who legitimately have T14 stats don't bother applying to better schools, either because they don't know, or they don't care. This tends to happen at certain state schools.

EDIT: I am not talking about people who consciously seek out full rides to avoid debt. This can be a credited strategy, depending on career goals. It's just the lack of research that is surprising to me.

Interminable_Waiting wrote:

twaswoo wrote:

DanInALionsDen wrote:

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

Logic fail.

+1

+2. Wasn't the purpose of this post concerned with people not thinking...

You're delusional if you think all those people that go to 3rd tier and 4th tier schools would give up on law school altogether if they found out that their degrees would be worthless.

Some will give up, some won't. Those who won't, will apply to better schools. More apps per spot=higher statistical chance of rejection.

You assume that at least some people going to T4 and T3 schools have the grades/scores (or the ability to get the scores) that put them in contention for T14 seats.

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

T14 is not going to get more competitive (for T14-quality applicants) by adding applicants with 146 LSATs, though.

motiontodismiss wrote:
You're delusional if you think all those people that go to 3rd tier and 4th tier schools would give up on law school altogether if they found out that their degrees would be worthless.

Some will give up, some won't. Those who won't, will apply to better schools. More apps per spot=higher statistical chance of rejection.

Only through a completely un-nuanced consideration of the statistics, and a completely uninformed understanding of the law school admissions process. Remember that this thread began with a discussion of someone paying sticker for a T4, having scored poorly on the LSAT with a GPA which was presumed to be low. Simply looking at the LSAT and GPA spreads (25-75 percentiles) for T3 and T4 schools will further tell you that most students at those schools--in fact nearly all--have numbers that wouldn't be competitive in the top 50 law schools, let alone the t14. Numbers like these at a t14 (barring URMs) would be "autorejects".

It is true that if all of the students applying to/prospectively attending T3s and 4s also applied to the t14, then the selectivity rating of the t14 schools would increase. That would be great for the t14 institutions themselves, however, it's ridiculous to propose that someone with a 149, 3.0 would hinder the chances of someone with a 173, 3.85 or some similar dichotomy (one of that pair isn't even really under consideration). Perhaps there are a handful of students in all of the T3 and T4 with GPA/LSAT stats which would make them competitive for the T14, and that would make acquiring admission to those schools marginally more competitive, but I think that's the most you can say about this.

woeisme wrote:

motiontodismiss wrote:Hey, don't complain-if they knew the truth (a TTT or TTTT JD is totally worthless), the T14 would get a whole lot more competitive. I wouldn't do it, but as long as that keeps them from applying to the lower T14 and possibly taking my spot, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

We wouldn't want that now, would we?

T14 is not going to get more competitive (for T14-quality applicants) by adding applicants with 146 LSATs, though.

I think OPs point was that these people who figure Cooley will be fine and go would otherwise retake and increase their score. While the Cooley to T14 scenario may be warped, maybe not for someone who gets into a solid T1 but could go T14 with a retake and +5 on the LSAT.

motiontodismiss wrote:
You're delusional if you think all those people that go to 3rd tier and 4th tier schools would give up on law school altogether if they found out that their degrees would be worthless.

Some will give up, some won't. Those who won't, will apply to better schools. More apps per spot=higher statistical chance of rejection.

Insert "possibility that some of those who were previously aiming for 3rd and 4th tier schools will get their s*** together and bring up their LSAT score to a minimally acceptable level at T14" and your argument won't be a logic fail.... but still on the verge of failure.

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

180

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

Self-doubt, maybe?

Is it possible that I am doing something that will destroy my life, and I am completely oblivious to the warning signs? For example: going to law school at all.

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I assume he cared because it was his girlfriend - which lends some suspicion to the idea that he only knew she was going to law school because she one day, offhandedly mentioned attending Cooley.

Flameski, IMO. Or he literally gives his gurrrrrrl zero TLC. Which could be explained by the possible Cooley attendance.




Hmm.

Always Credited wrote:

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I assume he cared because it was his girlfriend - which lends some suspicion to the idea that he only knew she was going to law school because she one day, offhandedly mentioned attending Cooley.

Flameski, IMO. Or he literally gives his gurrrrrrl zero TLC. Which could be explained by the possible Cooley attendance.




Hmm.

RC Fail.

Lots of fails ITT

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

Kind of agree, but then look at the housing market and no money down mortgages. When people were buying houses they couldn't afford it didn't really affect me, but now it does. When people decide to take out enormous debt to attend a school that will not find them job to pay off the debt and the school doesn't have a LRAP, unless these folks are rich, they will rely on IBR when they finish school. Too many folks relying on IBR means more government debt. This affects me.

holydonkey wrote:

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

Kind of agree, but then look at the housing market and no money down mortgages. When people were buying houses they couldn't afford it didn't really effect me, but now it does. When people decide to take out enormous debt to attend a school that will not find them job to pay off the debt and the school doesn't have a LRAP, unless these folks are rich, they will rely on IBR when they finish school. Too many folks relying on IBR means more government debt. This effects me.

+180

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I think it's out of compassion. I don't want a young college graduate to go six figures into debt for a Cooley degree for the same reason I don't want children to die of malaria in Africa.

To get at the "why do people do this" question, I think they're misinformed and/or lack better options. A lot of people know a lawyer who went to a TTT and is now making market or better. They use an availability heuristic and overestimate their odds. Many are overconfident and believe that they will be one of the lucky few that graduates at the top of the class. Furthermore, to understand why people do this you need to understand their other options. When you have a worthless degree in Political Science and the economy is in the shitter you get pretty desperate. These people want to be lied to and law schools like Cooley are more than ready to do so with bogus employment statistics and, at least in Cooley's case, bogus rankings. The reality these kids are facing sucks hard and that makes them susceptible to a Siren's song, sweetly singing them to shipwreck.

The question of why people attend third and fourth tier schools is something that we should discuss more. There clearly aren't enough threads on TLS that address this issue.

holydonkey wrote:

pleasetryagain wrote:why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

Kind of agree, but then look at the housing market and no money down mortgages. When people were buying houses they couldn't afford it didn't really affect me, but now it does. When people decide to take out enormous debt to attend a school that will not find them job to pay off the debt and the school doesn't have a LRAP, unless these folks are rich, they will rely on IBR when they finish school. Too many folks relying on IBR means more government debt. This affects me.

+1

I know a girl who has worse of a horror story than the one OP mentions... there are a lot of people who just shouldn't go to law school.

Just checked out their website...is Cooley a for-profit law school? If so, its an utter scam.

I hate meeting other ppl in my area who plan on going to law school.. They always get really excited at first and then they start talking about the LSAT. They always ask me what I got on the LSAT and get real quiet and awkward when I respond. The worst is when they are seniors who know Im a junior (most people assume I havent taken the LSAT yet) and try to give me advice and tips and tell me how impossible the LSAT is.

why do people care what other people do when it doesnt affect them?

I guess its just I dont want to see someone dig a hole for themselves because they have not put in the time that I have to research what they will be realistically getting out of their education. The person I was speaking of is a friend of my girlfriends, someone I barely know and in the long run dont really care about. With that said however, if someone asks me I would sure like to help them make a better decision. It just seems to me that, especially ITE, people that pay sticker at T4's, T3's, and at the majority of T2's are basically looking at a lifetime of debt with zero chance of paying it back. What is their rationale behind taking out those loans then?!

And as someone mentioned earlier, people with no money were allowed to borrow enough debt to buy houses and couldnt pay it off. In the end this affected all of us, so people abusing the IBR system could eventually screw over everyone on the long run.