Top Law Schools

Hey all

This is MrsTrucker. I will readily admit that I don't know crap about the methodology of the rankings, but something caught my eye and I was wanting to get some opinions.

If you look at the actual breakdown of the percentages next to Alabama's entry, the percentage for "employed at graduation" is missing, instead a "N/A" is there. Can this be an explanation, or am I grasping at straws? We're going to Bama either way, just was curious about this.

Thanks!

TruckerD wrote:Hey all

This is MrsTrucker. I will readily admit that I don't know crap about the methodology of the rankings, but something caught my eye and I was wanting to get some opinions.

If you look at the actual breakdown of the percentages next to Alabama's entry, the percentage for "employed at graduation" is missing, instead a "N/A" is there. Can this be an explanation, or am I grasping at straws? We're going to Bama either way, just was curious about this.

Thanks!

it's very possible. i doubt any of us would know that answer. regardless, I wouldn't be too worried about a single year fluctuation. It only really matters if it stays for a few years in a row, and even then that's not a big deal. Alabama is a solid school.

Students were too busy celebrating the national championship win to report their employment status.

I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

rondemarino wrote:I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

That explanation I very much doubt. I was just at ASD on Friday, and I remember hearing the numbers. Can't remember them now, but I am sure none of them were lower than 65 percent. I would have noticed that, as would my husband.

TruckerD wrote:

rondemarino wrote:I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

That explanation I very much doubt. I was just at ASD on Friday, and I remember hearing the numbers. Can't remember them now, but I am sure none of them were lower than 65 percent. I would have noticed that, as would my husband.

Well, then some idiot forget to submit them to USNWR, potentially screwing Bama's ranking by a good amount. Its the comforting explanation and might even be the real one. You'll find out soon. An omission like that will draw attention.

Personally, if you put any stock in the employment numbers (for any school outside the top 5-10), you're nuts. For as long as working at Starbucks counts as being employed from the point of view of USNWR law school rankings, I'll always be skeptical.

Starbuck's is hiring?!!!

CanadianWolf wrote:Starbuck's is hiring?!!!

+1

rondemarino wrote:Personally, if you put any stock in the employment numbers (for any school outside the top 5-10), you're nuts. For as long as working at Starbucks counts as being employed from the point of view of USNWR law school rankings, I'll always be skeptical.

Don't buy into the Kool-Aid of T10 schools. Their employment numbers are inflated as well. It is a terrible category for US News to rank, because it is self-reported, and easy to lie/game.

TheBigMediocre wrote:Students were too busy celebrating the national championship win to report their employment status.

This.

Dont worry about rankings. They dont matter as much as you think they do.

Alabama is a very strong school in its region and providing you do well, you will be able to find a well paying legal job. Screw what USNWR says.

Other schools lied about their report to USNWR better.

I for one am pissed. Just going to put it out there. I've contacted admissions and am waiting to hear back from the director of career services. N/A? N/A?!?!?!? REALLY?!?!?!?! WTF. I frankly don't understand and feel like there needs to be a huge explanation for this. I'm not so shallow as to put my whole stock into a yearly drop, and instead am more focused on general trends. BUT, the general trend from bama was on the up and up and a 8 point drop is no small dip! Not to mention, it seems like it squarely comes down to the missing line item of % employed at graduation. Something just doesn't add up here. As tight a ship as the Dean and admissions have run this last year and as focused as they have been in increasing rankings, it just doesn't make sense why something as important as this would not be reported.

rondemarino wrote:I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

This is what I believe happened. Alabama is a huge rankings and image whore. Since it was lower than 65% employed at graduation, they would rather have that they did not submit anything (N/A) than to have a 55% or something sticking out there.

Don't go to Alabama if you don't work in Alabama or possibly the surrounding states. Many grads may not have a job at graduation, but I'd be willing to bet most are employed not long after.

deadpanic wrote:

rondemarino wrote:I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

This is what I believe happened. Alabama is a huge rankings and image whore. Since it was lower than 65% employed at graduation, they would rather have that they did not submit anything (N/A) than to have a 55% or something sticking out there.

Don't go to Alabama if you don't work in Alabama or possibly the surrounding states. Many grads may not have a job at graduation, but I'd be willing to bet most are employed not long after.

You are patently wrong. I am waiting to post up what the real story is once I get the go ahead from Alabama, who are in conversations with USNWR as we speak. Alabama has been screwed. The REAL DATA is 92% employed, with 100% reporting, which was reported to USNWR.

Douche.

lol, easy there big boy, no one was trying to offend you. If you want, continue drinking the Bama kool-aid they keep feeding you. Unfortunately, a lot of naive people get suckered into their lies.

deadpanic wrote:lol, easy there big boy, no one was trying to offend you. If you want, continue drinking the Bama kool-aid they keep feeding you. Unfortunately, a lot of naive people get suckered into their lies.

MrsTrucker: Obviously, you are just a poor misguided Ole Miss grad who couldn't get into Bama if you wanted. I understand your frustration, but you should channel it into more productive things...say like that shrine to NASCAR made out of beer cans you are working on?

lol get over the Bama employment issue. Even if you get the school to give you an "accurate" number for employment statistics, its not as though there will be a break down between those working at starbucks, at a private law firm, or McD's: its just gonna be a break down btw "private" and "public sector". If you thought Bama was worth going to before the rankings came out, then nothing should change. If your worried their "reputation" will take a hit, again I would say nothing is gonna change: highly regarded in the state and ... not so much anywhere else.

remotelyfeasible wrote:

rondemarino wrote:Personally, if you put any stock in the employment numbers (for any school outside the top 5-10), you're nuts. For as long as working at Starbucks counts as being employed from the point of view of USNWR law school rankings, I'll always be skeptical.

Don't buy into the Kool-Aid of T10 schools. Their employment numbers are inflated as well. It is a terrible category for US News to rank, because it is self-reported, and easy to lie/game.

What is your basis for saying that T10 schools have employment numbers that are inflated?

hwstewart wrote:

deadpanic wrote:

rondemarino wrote:I think if schools don't report, USNEWS spots them 65%, or something close, to calculate the rankings. Its probably just that the % employed at graduation was less then 65% and the school decided to be smart and just take the "free" % USNWR was going to use.

This is what I believe happened. Alabama is a huge rankings and image whore. Since it was lower than 65% employed at graduation, they would rather have that they did not submit anything (N/A) than to have a 55% or something sticking out there.

Don't go to Alabama if you don't work in Alabama or possibly the surrounding states. Many grads may not have a job at graduation, but I'd be willing to bet most are employed not long after.

You are patently wrong. I am waiting to post up what the real story is once I get the go ahead from Alabama, who are in conversations with USNWR as we speak. Alabama has been screwed. The REAL DATA is 92% employed, with 100% reporting, which was reported to USNWR.

Douche.

Your identity is sealed. Release the information.

I'll paraphrase until I get a green light. The long and short of it is this....

Alabama submitted their data for employment the same as the rest of their data. The figure was 92.00% employed at graduation, with 100% of the student body reporting. However, USNWR (and I quote) "screwed up" and neglected to include the data in their analysis. Bob Moore, the man responsible for the rankings, personally called the school administration and acknowledged their error in calculating the rankings. He has said that he will address the issue in his blog. He's freaking blog! As if thats some type of consolation for a school getting reemed for 8 places in the rankings. However, he said that he would not adjust the rankings to correct for the issue. My understanding is that the school is doing all that they can to remedy the situation and that hopefully a second, corrected ranking can be produced online. But the bottom line is that the USNWR rankings to be released tomorrow will dramatically undervalue Alabama due to neglecting to include data that was provided to them.

arhmcpo wrote:lol get over the Bama employment issue. Even if you get the school to give you an "accurate" number for employment statistics, its not as though there will be a break down between those working at starbucks, at a private law firm, or McD's: its just gonna be a break down btw "private" and "public sector". If you thought Bama was worth going to before the rankings came out, then nothing should change. If your worried their "reputation" will take a hit, again I would say nothing is gonna change: highly regarded in the state and ... not so much anywhere else.

You see the point is, it's not about the validity of employment data. I agree that its a flawed input in the whole rankings system. I'm not debating that. What's important is US News manipulating a schools rank by dropping the ball and neglecting to incorporate (albeit skewed) data into their analysis. Look at the numbers. If you plugged in 92% for the employment data and stack that up against other schools in this range, you could expect up to a 10 point jump.

deadpanic wrote:lol, easy there big boy, no one was trying to offend you. If you want, continue drinking the Bama kool-aid they keep feeding you. Unfortunately, a lot of naive people get suckered into their lies.

And if you want to be an ass and take an opportunity to take a swipe at Alabama in this situation, thats fine. If I had been waitlisted at Case Western I would probably take an opportunity to make myself feel better any chance I got too. But imagine if this was your law school. Personally, I feel like this should enrage everybody here who values the ranking of their school, not just people attending Alabama. This illuminates how unprofessional and unreliable US News in producing this system that has such significant ramifications.

Bama is as good now as it was two days ago. Don't think about it.

Well, I attend Alabama Law. I can tell you that employment numbers are better than 65%. Probably closer to 90%. Additionally Many of my friends (I think 12) are getting jobs in other states (NY, VA, OH, MO, IL....). But....

I would not, on the other hand, put any faith into the Alabama Office of Career Services. They are a pitiful joke compared to comparable schools. OCI numbers and range are pathetic, additional help outside of basic resume editing is abysmal. I got the exact job I wanted and I credit it that far more to help from professors than anything those Keystone Cops in the OCS did. I would not, in the least, be surprised to learn that they forgot to send the employment numbers.

One more thing to consider is that AL was tied with multiple schools for 30th last year. Any small fluctuation makes a huge difference in ranking number. That being said, an 8 point drop is no small margin and, in all, I don't see it as warranted.

Additionally, our GPA's are lower than other schools, but the new curve goes into effect next year and should help that out. In sum, the school is great educationally, fair in placement after school, and horrible in assisting students with getting a job. A change in leadership is certainly needed in that OCS office.....it is terrible.

Just to confirm the submission error, see the quote from a WSJ article published today. Link to the article is below the quotation.

"We chatted briefly with Bob Morse, the director of data research for the magazine. He said that this year, as in others, some of the movement was due to problems the schools had with the submission of data. He attributed Alabama’s drop, for instance, partly to an issue with data submission. Some moves up the board, Morse said, were the result of schools fixing past data problems. "

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/04/15/the ... -rankings/

It does seem unfair. US News could have gone to the effort to make sure the correct data was in place. No matter what people say, these things matter.