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Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:59 pm
by nymets123
interesting write up in the Times about problems growing with clinics at public universities. Thought I'd share it. Deep pocketed interests making trouble...
One small reason to go to a private school instead of public I guess
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/us/04 ... ol.html?hp
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:03 pm
by kalvano
Hitting a little close to home I guess.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:07 pm
by twert
this is really interesting.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:09 pm
by 1ferret!
insidious ....
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:16 pm
by soullesswonder
Silver Lining: obviously students are getting great practical experience and actually making a difference; otherwise they wouldn't be pissing people off.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:32 pm
by vanwinkle
From the Virginia Law Weekly's April 1 edition:
VA Attorney General declares UVA Law unconstitutional
It's supposed to be a joke, but maybe we're not too far off after all...
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:47 pm
by jks289
Yikes. The most disturbing part of that article is the suggestion that privilege doesn't extend to law students working in clinics under the supervision of a lawyer, especially in criminal cases. Privilege extends to medical students at teaching hospitals, why wouldn't the spirit of confidentiality extend to this?
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:18 pm
by 270910
jks289 wrote:Yikes. The most disturbing part of that article is the suggestion that privilege doesn't extend to law students working in clinics under the supervision of a lawyer, especially in criminal cases. Privilege extends to medical students at teaching hospitals, why wouldn't the spirit of confidentiality extend to this?
While I don't know the answer to your question, I do know that as a lawyer or lawyer to be you should probably actually learn the detail and nuance of those two doctrines before making arguments about their validity. There may or may not be a good reason, it may or may not be that way in all jurisdictions, it may or may not even be true.
Seeing 'the spirit of confidentiality' just makes my skin crawl. Once you start digging into how the legal world actually works, people making these broad glosses over issues (don't even get me started on the average comments re: HCR constitutionality) gets kind of maddening.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:29 pm
by jks289
disco_barred wrote:jks289 wrote:Yikes. The most disturbing part of that article is the suggestion that privilege doesn't extend to law students working in clinics under the supervision of a lawyer, especially in criminal cases. Privilege extends to medical students at teaching hospitals, why wouldn't the spirit of confidentiality extend to this?
While I don't know the answer to your question, I do know that as a lawyer or lawyer to be you should probably actually learn the detail and nuance of those two doctrines before making arguments about their validity. There may or may not be a good reason, it may or may not be that way in all jurisdictions, it may or may not even be true.
Seeing 'the spirit of confidentiality' just makes my skin crawl. Once you start digging into how the legal world actually works, people making these broad glosses over issues (don't even get me started on the average comments re: HCR constitutionality) gets kind of maddening.
I was making a general observation about the notion that a law student working under the supervision of a professional being called to testify regarding the case. I didn't make any representations about either doctrine, other than to ask if anyone could shed light on the "detail and nuance" of the respective situations. You're obviously brilliant and sophisticated (re: HCR constitutionality, etc
) so I can imagine how it must pain your intellect to see someone gloss over issues by not using adequately precise language on internet message boards.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:44 pm
by bluebonnet21
nymets123 wrote:interesting write up in the Times about problems growing with clinics at public universities. Thought I'd share it. Deep pocketed interests making trouble...
One small reason to go to a private school instead of public I guess
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/us/04 ... ol.html?hp
Tulane is private, and it was mentioned too.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:16 am
by existenz
Yeah that article pissed me off. Basically corporations are lobbying politicians to shut off money to law schools where students actually go after corporate crooks.
Their justification is that taxpayer money shouldn't be going to politically-sensitive tasks such as criminal defense, death penalty, environmental law, etc. I wish someone would point out that law students are paying $45,000 a year in tuition EVEN AT STATE SCHOOLS and thus are not getting paid by taxpayers to do this stuff. If anything, most law clinics are extracurricular and optional. It's part of the damn education.
Many of these lawmakers are just stupid enough to ruin their state law schools on behalf of these corporate lobbyists. Ridiculous.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:29 am
by soullesswonder
existenz wrote:
Many of these lawmakers are just stupid enough to ruin their state law schools on behalf of these corporate lobbyists. Ridiculous.
it's Louisiana and Maryland - would you expect anything better?
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:46 pm
by vanwinkle
soullesswonder wrote:existenz wrote:
Many of these lawmakers are just stupid enough to ruin their state law schools on behalf of these corporate lobbyists. Ridiculous.
it's Louisiana and Maryland - would you expect anything better?
After spending Spring Break volunteering in New Orleans, the Louisiana parts of this article sounded downright ordinary to me.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:31 pm
by legalease9
vanwinkle wrote:soullesswonder wrote:existenz wrote:
Many of these lawmakers are just stupid enough to ruin their state law schools on behalf of these corporate lobbyists. Ridiculous.
it's Louisiana and Maryland - would you expect anything better?
After spending Spring Break volunteering in New Orleans, the Louisiana parts of this article sounded downright ordinary to me.
One of the many reasons never to apply to Louisiana law schools.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:02 pm
by Borhas
get used to it, the only way to effect policy nowadays is through special interest. Luckily, there is one for every group, so you just have to be more persuasive/corrupt than your competitors.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:11 pm
by vanwinkle
Nightrunner wrote:Borhas wrote:get used to it, the only way to effect policy nowadays is through special interest. Luckily, there is one for every group, so you just have to be more persuasive/corrupt than your competitors.
AMURICA
FUCK YEAH!
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:23 pm
by Cupidity
Poor fools don't know who they are messing with. All judges were once law students. Anyone who goes after law schools is in for a world of hurt.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:39 pm
by vanwinkle
Cupidity wrote:Poor fools don't know who they are messing with. All judges were once law students. Anyone who goes after law schools is in for a world of hurt.
Judges in Louisiana are elected, and are not required to recuse themselves from cases due to conflict of interest to the same extent they are in many other states. Pwned.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:42 pm
by Cupidity
vanwinkle wrote:Cupidity wrote:Poor fools don't know who they are messing with. All judges were once law students. Anyone who goes after law schools is in for a world of hurt.
Judges in Louisiana are elected, and are not required to recuse themselves from cases due to conflict of interest to the same extent they are in many other states. Pwned.
let it make it to the supreme court.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:45 pm
by soullesswonder
vanwinkle wrote:Cupidity wrote:Poor fools don't know who they are messing with. All judges were once law students. Anyone who goes after law schools is in for a world of hurt.
Judges in Louisiana are elected, and are not required to recuse themselves from cases due to conflict of interest to the same extent they are in many other states. Pwned.
judges who get elected in LA probably weren't good enough students to work in any law school clinics, anyway.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:01 pm
by vanwinkle
Cupidity wrote:let it make it to the supreme court.
Which it might and it might not.
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:46 pm
by koehn2
vanwinkle wrote:Cupidity wrote:let it make it to the supreme court.
Which it might and it might not.
Excellent observation!!!
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:25 am
by chris0805
Cupidity wrote:vanwinkle wrote:Cupidity wrote:Poor fools don't know who they are messing with. All judges were once law students. Anyone who goes after law schools is in for a world of hurt.
Judges in Louisiana are elected, and are not required to recuse themselves from cases due to conflict of interest to the same extent they are in many other states. Pwned.
[strike]let it make it to the supreme court.[/strike] Try to challenge it as a violation of federal law and remove to federal court
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:46 pm
by nuss3
pretty outrageous. kind of sad when something so important as checking special interest is left to students (although the opportunity for the students is obviously great).
gotta love this:
“Like the hapless Wizard of Oz, the clinics want all attention directed elsewhere, while they struggle mightily to keep concealed their actual use of public funds,” Kevin Kelly, the lawyer for the developer, Sussex Commons, wrote in his brief.
because all law school clinics are conspiring to waste funding and subvert the governments that fund them...
Re: Law clinics under fire from special interests
Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:58 pm
by Z3RO
This is more than a little troubling. I like the part where they accuse the students of "act[ing] like regulators," because they are bringing valid issues to trial.
I guess the moral of the story is that you can't expect an unfettered education if you go to a school fettered by public money.
disco_barred wrote:jks289 wrote:Yikes. The most disturbing part of that article is the suggestion that privilege doesn't extend to law students working in clinics under the supervision of a lawyer, especially in criminal cases. Privilege extends to medical students at teaching hospitals, why wouldn't the spirit of confidentiality extend to this?
While I don't know the answer to your question, I do know that as a lawyer or lawyer to be you should probably actually learn the detail and nuance of those two doctrines before making arguments about their validity. There may or may not be a good reason, it may or may not be that way in all jurisdictions, it may or may not even be true.
Seeing 'the spirit of confidentiality' just makes my skin crawl. Once you start digging into how the legal world actually works, people making these broad glosses over issues (don't even get me started on the average comments re: HCR constitutionality) gets kind of maddening.
I know what you mean, but you're being a little glib. These kinds of clinics cannot exist if there is no assumption of confidentiality. It undermines the entire project.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but I am really looking forward to participating in clinics as part of my legal training, and it's discouraging to see them subjugated to public interests like this.