Top Law Schools

It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

UCLA is still the superior school, but its larger class size is hurting ITE. My speculation is that UCLA grads were no-offered in other markets such as NYC and DC to a greater extent than USC, so the NLJ should look better for UCLA in the future.

im_blue wrote:UCLA is still the superior school, but its larger class size is hurting ITE. My speculation is that UCLA grads were no-offered in other markets such as NYC and DC to a greater extent than USC, so the NLJ should look better for UCLA in the future.

Wow, no offense to you because I think it is possible, but that is a pretty weak explanation. I mean, UCLA being more risky (does better when times are good and worse when they're not) is not a great reason to choose it.

Flanker1067 wrote:

im_blue wrote:UCLA is still the superior school, but its larger class size is hurting ITE. My speculation is that UCLA grads were no-offered in other markets such as NYC and DC to a greater extent than USC, so the NLJ should look better for UCLA in the future.

Wow, no offense to you because I think it is possible, but that is a pretty weak explanation. I mean, UCLA being more risky (does better when times are good and worse when they're not) is not a great reason to choose it.

You have to remember that the most recent NLJ data is from an anomalous year, because a lot of students were caught off-guard by the economic meltdown and waves of deferrals and no-offers. Many NYC-centric schools like NYU took a heavier hit than their peers as a result, but it doesn't mean they were weaker schools. In subsequent years, students will adjust their OCI strategy accordingly. I'm just speculating that UCLA grads who pursued markets outside CA got burned.

Flanker1067 wrote:I USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority?

UCLA is a better school in terms of academic reputation (which helps for clerkships and academia). But USC certainly has a stronger/more loyal alumni network, which I would assume helps tremendously in a down economy. The two schools are pretty much functionally equivalent in So Cal. If you want anything other than So Cal, UCLA is probably your better bet.

tallboone wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:I USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority?

UCLA is a better school in terms of academic reputation (which helps for clerkships and academia). But USC certainly has a stronger/more loyal alumni network, which I would assume helps tremendously in a down economy. The two schools are pretty much functionally equivalent in So Cal. If you want anything other than So Cal, UCLA is probably your better bet.

This. I don't think one year of NLJ data in an anomalous year changes that. Plus I wouldn't exactly call USC 47% vs UCLA 42% (NLJ + clerkships) a crushing win for USC.

Ok, I respect your opinions even if I am not quite convinced. It was more then beat, it wasn't (cheapshot) like when Mich students say they outplaced Duke because they did by .5%, but was more like 15% more of their class. I am not sure if swings like that really happen often, is there data from previous years showing the opposite occuring?


Add: I just looked up NLJ placement data for 2008, and 2007, both years also go to USC.

While I wouldn't underestimate the power of a USC affiliation in the LA community (the wealthy and connected go to USC undergrad), it should be added that UCLA is in Westwood/Bel Air, while USC is in a pretty gross part of town.

quickquestionthanks wrote:While I wouldn't underestimate the power of a USC affiliation in the LA community (the wealthy and connected go to USC undergrad), it should be added that UCLA is in Westwood/Bel Air, while USC is in a pretty gross part of town.

Very true but downtown LA is pretty cool and seems to be slowly expanding towards SC. But ya Westwood is pretty awesome and USC is still in the ga-etow.

ENGINEERD wrote:

quickquestionthanks wrote:While I wouldn't underestimate the power of a USC affiliation in the LA community (the wealthy and connected go to USC undergrad), it should be added that UCLA is in Westwood/Bel Air, while USC is in a pretty gross part of town.

Very true but downtown LA is pretty cool and seems to be slowly expanding towards SC. But ya Westwood is pretty awesome and USC is still in the ga-etow.

Meh. I've lived there. I'm not really sure what's cool about Downtown LA unless you have season tickets at the Staples Center.

quickquestionthanks wrote:

ENGINEERD wrote:

quickquestionthanks wrote:While I wouldn't underestimate the power of a USC affiliation in the LA community (the wealthy and connected go to USC undergrad), it should be added that UCLA is in Westwood/Bel Air, while USC is in a pretty gross part of town.

Very true but downtown LA is pretty cool and seems to be slowly expanding towards SC. But ya Westwood is pretty awesome and USC is still in the ga-etow.

Meh. I've lived there. I'm not really sure what's cool about Downtown LA unless you have season tickets at the Staples Center.

Speaking Spanish in the streets and getting things for SUPER cheap because of it is pretty damn cool if you ask me

Flanker1067 wrote:It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

blatant anti-ucla troll from usc

SandyC877 wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

blatant anti-ucla troll from usc

This. UCLA is the better school and has the better So-cal rep. USC is a perfectly decent school but in the end it is as regional as Loyola, the name barely carries to San Diego much less Northern California. UCLA will get you anywhere in the West, and in a better economy has a national name. The entire thread it just Flakers attempt to convince people otherwise.

Mattalones wrote:

quickquestionthanks wrote:

ENGINEERD wrote:

quickquestionthanks wrote:While I wouldn't underestimate the power of a USC affiliation in the LA community (the wealthy and connected go to USC undergrad), it should be added that UCLA is in Westwood/Bel Air, while USC is in a pretty gross part of town.

Very true but downtown LA is pretty cool and seems to be slowly expanding towards SC. But ya Westwood is pretty awesome and USC is still in the ga-etow.

Meh. I've lived there. I'm not really sure what's cool about Downtown LA unless you have season tickets at the Staples Center.

Speaking Spanish in the streets and getting things for SUPER cheap because of it is pretty damn cool if you ask me

Probably depends on where you're from. If that's novel to you, then I can see how it would feel adventurous. But if you're from the Southwest, you just refer to that as a bad part of town.

quickquestionthanks wrote:

Mattalones wrote:Speaking Spanish in the streets and getting things for SUPER cheap because of it is pretty damn cool if you ask me

Probably depends on where you're from. If that's novel to you, then I can see how it would feel adventurous. But if you're from the [strike]Southwest[/strike] rest of the country, you just refer to that as a bad part of town.

FTFY

jks289 wrote:

SandyC877 wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

blatant anti-ucla troll from usc

This. UCLA is the better school and has the better So-cal rep. USC is a perfectly decent school but in the end it is as regional as Loyola, the name barely carries to San Diego much less Northern California. UCLA will get you anywhere in the West, and in a better economy has a national name. The entire thread it just Flakers attempt to convince people otherwise.

Hahaha, poor misguided attempts at calling me out. I am from New England, went to college in Boston and have only visited SoCal because my Gparents live there. Thanks for your stubborn "UCLA is better!" type responses. A "down" economy just doesn't explain much because USC outplaces (via NLJ250) in '07 and '08. I agree that UCLA does have the better reputation, as it does win via the Lawyer and Judge rankings and does have a better overall institution. However, if all that does not correlate to job placement for the law schools, then I'll take a prestige hit for a better shot at a job....

Add: for those who began talking about the geography, I have heard from everyone that UCLA is in a much much better area and I don't doubt that. I am just inquiring as to job prospects really. I know there are a number of great threads written by people who live in L.A on neighborhoods and such.

Flanker1067 wrote:

jks289 wrote:

SandyC877 wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

blatant anti-ucla troll from usc

This. UCLA is the better school and has the better So-cal rep. USC is a perfectly decent school but in the end it is as regional as Loyola, the name barely carries to San Diego much less Northern California. UCLA will get you anywhere in the West, and in a better economy has a national name. The entire thread it just Flakers attempt to convince people otherwise.

Hahaha, poor misguided attempts at calling me out. I am from New England, went to college in Boston and have only visited SoCal because my Gparents live there. Thanks for your stubborn "UCLA is better!" type responses. A "down" economy just doesn't explain much because USC outplaces (via NLJ250) in '07 and '08. I agree that UCLA does have the better reputation, as it does win via the Lawyer and Judge rankings and does have a better overall institution. However, if all that does not correlate to job placement for the law schools, then I'll take a prestige hit for a better shot at a job....

Sorry I just assume anyone who starts a thread saying they are "confused" and then argues against every single "UCLA is better" post must have some kind of agenda. UCLA vs USC isn't something most people are "confused" about, so I am just not sure who you want to convince here.

I see what you mean, I am intentionally pushing this because I am confused as to why UCLA (law) has the better rep. In a way, I am trolling because I want someone to prove my impresson wrong. I am completely open to being convinced, but I would like some data (or personal anecdotes, this is TLS after all) to do it.

As I said above, 47% for USC compared to 42% for UCLA in one year means nothing for job prospects. You'd really have to compare NLJ + clerkship + PI data to be thorough. There's nothing wrong with USC if you're set on LA, but UCLA crushes them anywhere else (even as close as SF and SD).

55 UCLA grads are registered as Assistant US Attorneys with the California Bar, compared to 34 from USC. Adjusted for class size, UCLA comes out 3% higher in terms of edge for AUSA spots. (# of AUSAs / Entering Class Size for 2009)

Not the end all of government work, but definitely a good measure.

Government work in Cali: UCLA.

(Source: http://californiabar.globl.org/)

Flanker1067 wrote:I see what you mean, I am intentionally pushing this because I am confused as to why UCLA (law) has the better rep. In a way, I am trolling because I want someone to prove my impresson wrong. I am completely open to being convinced, but I would like some data (or personal anecdotes, this is TLS after all) to do it.

Fair enough. FWIW, If you get the chance, just explore L.A for more than a few days at a time. UCLA shits on USC in so many ways.

SandyC877 wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:I see what you mean, I am intentionally pushing this because I am confused as to why UCLA (law) has the better rep. In a way, I am trolling because I want someone to prove my impresson wrong. I am completely open to being convinced, but I would like some data (or personal anecdotes, this is TLS after all) to do it.

Fair enough. FWIW, If you get the chance, just explore L.A for more than a few days at a time. UCLA shits on USC in so many ways.

UCLA is also very dedicated to social justice interest as an institution. The undergrads from underrepresented backgrounds can opt into their own college within the university. The education school, while T5, will only place teachers in the most disadvantaged schools (in Watts, Compton, etc). So, the mission of the university probably plays into admissions decisions, and UCLA probably tends to pick several people who have expressed interest and demonstrated experience in social justice work. The law school has an entire cohort (section) of people who do do public interest - you probably saw the this on the last page of their application if you applied. Those law students apply knowing that they are going to go into PI. It is the also only law school in the nation that has a critical race studied concentration. The focus over there is not nearly as concentrated on getting Biglaw jobs as it is at USC, or most other schools for that matter. UCLA placing less in NLJ250 jobs doesn't have much to do with the options available to its student/graduates. It has more to do with the fact that the student population there just has a more diverse set of interests than you find at many other law schools.

A lot of their "featured professors" do social justice work or are in very academic fields like philosophy. While there are definitely students interested in corporate law, UCLA just isn't the "Biglaw or bust" kind of place.

As a dispassionate observer, these seem to be the arguments I'm reading:

USC places better in big law, however this might be due self-selection--more UCLA students go into public interest.

UCLA has a nicer location.

UCLA has a broader geographic reputation/reach than USC.

UCLA has better academia/clerkship opportunities (if someone could post some data for this, it would be helpful).

Everything else I've read has just been noise.

Rawlsian wrote:As a dispassionate observer, these seem to be the arguments I'm reading: [....]

UCLA has better academia/clerkship opportunities (if someone could post some data for this, it would be helpful). [....]

The most recent ABA data for UCLA shows 11 percent of graduates employed as clerks and 3.8 percent employed in academia. For USC, the numbers are 7.5 and 3.7.

jks289 wrote:

SandyC877 wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:It seems fairly unanimous on TLS that UCLA is the superior LA school. However, neither school places well into clerkships and based on the most recent NLJ stats, USC appears to have crushed UCLA pretty bad. Does this indicate USC's superiority? Feel free to respond with opinions or one liners, I am just wondering from people who have made this decision.

blatant anti-ucla troll from usc

This. UCLA is the better school and has the better So-cal rep. USC is a perfectly decent school but in the end it is as regional as Loyola, the name barely carries to San Diego much less Northern California. UCLA will get you anywhere in the West, and in a better economy has a national name. The entire thread it just Flakers attempt to convince people otherwise.

Hey, 0L heading to USC next year. I won't disagree with the rep of UCLA vs. USC, but from everything I've heard USC will definitely reach San Diego and even Norcal. I'm not trying to start a big argument here but when I was deciding between Davis and USC (even with a preference for Norcal) people said go with USC. I know USC isn't T14 caliber but I don't see how it could be "as regional as Loyola." If there is specific data you are basing your comment off I like to see it so I'm not disappointed when I find myself stuck in socal!