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Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:43 am
by farewelltoarms
I've been thinking about this, but I just don't see it. If a school has x minorities, what proof is there that those people got in partially due to some unknowable boost? I'm positive no school has ever formally announced the existence of such a boost, and if they did, it would actually further their aim to promote diversity. If a school had a reputation for providing admission boosts to minorities, then it would most likely increase the overall number of minorities applying to that school thus giving them a greater selection to choose from. If a URM boost did exist, it would be the school's advantage to come out and say it.
Just because the school says they promote ''diversity'' it doesn't mean they're looking for URM's. Diversity could be age, location, life experiences, and plenty of other factors separate from ethnicity.
I honestly think the URM boost idea is just an internet phenomena, created by angry white people who didn't get into certain schools and overly optimistic minorities who want to ease their admission anxiety.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:44 am
by 09042014
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:48 am
by vale1rd
ive been wondering this too, as a minority i almost feel as though its cheating the system if i say im a URM. I would rather know that i go in on my own merits if such a boost exists.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:50 am
by reasonabledoubt
farewelltoarms wrote:I've been thinking about this, but I just don't see it. If a school has x minorities, what proof is there that those people got in partially due to some unknowable boost? I'm positive no school has ever formally announced the existence of such a boost, and if they did, it would actually further their aim to promote diversity. If a school had a reputation for providing admission boosts to minorities, then it would most likely increase the overall number of minorities applying to that school thus giving them a greater selection to choose from. If a URM boost did exist, it would be the school's advantage to come out and say it.
Just because the school says they promote ''diversity'' it doesn't mean they're looking for URM's. Diversity could be age, location, life experiences, and plenty of other factors separate from ethnicity.
I honestly think the URM boost idea is just an internet phenomena, created by angry white people who didn't get into certain schools and overly optimistic minorities who want to ease their admission anxiety.
I think most people consider this compelling: Look in the bottom left corner of any school in LSN. Scroll over the green arrows which are furthest down and to the left.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:50 am
by Joga Bonito
Desert Fox wrote:
... that's pretty funny.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:52 am
by vanwinkle
Joga Bonito wrote:Desert Fox wrote:
... that's pretty funny.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:52 am
by 09042014
vale1rd wrote:ive been wondering this too, as a minority i almost feel as though its cheating the system if i say im a URM. I would rather know that i go in on my own merits if such a boost exists.
Take any advantage you can, fair is only an emotion.
If you were stupid enough to not want it, you could always refuse to disclose race on your applications.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:53 am
by Joga Bonito
reasonabledoubt wrote:farewelltoarms wrote:I've been thinking about this, but I just don't see it. If a school has x minorities, what proof is there that those people got in partially due to some unknowable boost? I'm positive no school has ever formally announced the existence of such a boost, and if they did, it would actually further their aim to promote diversity. If a school had a reputation for providing admission boosts to minorities, then it would most likely increase the overall number of minorities applying to that school thus giving them a greater selection to choose from. If a URM boost did exist, it would be the school's advantage to come out and say it.
Just because the school says they promote ''diversity'' it doesn't mean they're looking for URM's. Diversity could be age, location, life experiences, and plenty of other factors separate from ethnicity.
I honestly think the URM boost idea is just an internet phenomena, created by angry white people who didn't get into certain schools and overly optimistic minorities who want to ease their admission anxiety.
I think most people consider this compelling: Look in the bottom left corner of any school in LSN. Scroll over the green arrows which are furthest down and to the left.
LSN doesn't prove it beyond a "reasonable doubt"...but still, aa exist so end of thread.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:55 am
by vanwinkle
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:04 am
by Joga Bonito
Ya know, I think somebody with a higher lsat should have filed that suit, I mean, i don't think she was gonna get in anyway, AA or not.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:06 am
by kalvano
As obvious a flame as Clay Aiken in a biker bar.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:09 am
by Zapatero
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:09 am
by ravens20
There is absolutely nothing wrong with making use of a URM boost; it is well within the rights of any eligible applicant to use it (and they would be foolish not to). However there is no question that such a boost does exist; it is not merely an internet phenomenon. If you want evidence go to lawschoolnumbers.com click on any school and look at the graph of acceptances/waitlists/denials. Go to the green dots in the lower left hand corner that are separated from all of the other green dots and note how they almost all have three letters in parentheses: URM.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:19 am
by farewelltoarms
ravens20 wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong with making use of a URM boost; it is well within the rights of any eligible applicant to use it (and they would be foolish not to). However there is no question that such a boost does exist; it is not merely an internet phenomenon. If you want evidence go to lawschoolnumbers.com click on any school and look at the graph of acceptances/waitlists/denials. Go to the green dots in the lower left hand corner that are separated from all of the other green dots and note how they almost all have three letters in parentheses: URM.
Alright I just did this, but I fail to see how this is persuasive. First off, LSN is a website self reported by users, not the law schools themselves. The vast majority of the people that apply to law schools don't use LSN. Perhaps just as many white people got in with those numbers as the minority users, but we'll never know this because of the way the website works.
Secondly, why would a school purposefully want more minorities? This is a more general question, and not really a rebuttal, but still. I don't see how having more minorities will make a law school more prestigious or desirable.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:20 am
by vanwinkle
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:27 am
by Nom Sawyer
Desert Fox, nice flame pic... but in terms of scale you are a little off.
This is more suitable:
--ImageRemoved--
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:30 am
by farewelltoarms
Okay I read that. Basically, the court allows race to play a role in admissions because of the ''compelling interest'' in diversity.
I have no idea what ''compelling interest'' in diversity means though. A law school is a business designed to make money, hence all this obsession on superfluous rankings in magazines. A better ranking means more rich out of state kids will apply and the school will make more money. As far as I know, having more minorities does not boost your ranking in any way, so once again, what is the compelling interest?
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:31 am
by fidesverita
Wow, how you fail to see the URM boost is just beyond me...
This is not to say that URM candidates get in easily. They still have to be highly qualified and capable candidates. They often accept amazing people who just happen to claim URM status. It's just that the top schools tend to be more "flexible" with the numbers they've accepted with URM candidates versus others. Keep in mind that you have to be the right kind of minority to take advantage of this boost...
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:31 am
by 02082010
Ran here.
But seriously, for proof, visit my LSN.
hth.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:32 am
by vanwinkle
farewelltoarms wrote:
Okay I read that. Basically, the court allows race to play a role in admissions because of the ''compelling interest'' in diversity.
I have no idea what ''compelling interest'' in diversity means though. A law school is a business designed to make money, hence all this obsession on superfluous rankings in magazines. A better ranking means more rich out of state kids will apply and the school will make more money. As far as I know, having more minorities does not boost your ranking in any way, so once again, what is the compelling interest?
Let me explain this in the simplest terms possible:
You. Are. An. Idiot.
I hope you can understand that.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:34 am
by Zapatero
farewelltoarms wrote:ravens20 wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong with making use of a URM boost; it is well within the rights of any eligible applicant to use it (and they would be foolish not to). However there is no question that such a boost does exist; it is not merely an internet phenomenon. If you want evidence go to lawschoolnumbers.com click on any school and look at the graph of acceptances/waitlists/denials. Go to the green dots in the lower left hand corner that are separated from all of the other green dots and note how they almost all have three letters in parentheses: URM.
Alright I just did this, but I fail to see how this is persuasive. First off, LSN is a website self reported by users, not the law schools themselves. The vast majority of the people that apply to law schools don't use LSN. Perhaps just as many white people got in with those numbers as the minority users, but we'll never know this because of the way the website works.
Secondly, why would a school purposefully want more minorities? This is a more general question, and not really a rebuttal, but still. I don't see how having more minorities will make a law school more prestigious or desirable.
LSN isn't perfect, but there's no reason to believe that the ratio of URM/non-URM applicants on the site would be higher than the overall ratio.
Second, they don't want "more" minorities; they want racial representation that mirrors that of the overall population. Not every minority group gets a boost, only those certain minority groups that have lower average scores than the rest of the applicant pool. As for being more desirable, would you want to go to an all-white school? I wouldn't.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:38 am
by farewelltoarms
vanwinkle wrote:farewelltoarms wrote:
Okay I read that. Basically, the court allows race to play a role in admissions because of the ''compelling interest'' in diversity.
I have no idea what ''compelling interest'' in diversity means though. A law school is a business designed to make money, hence all this obsession on superfluous rankings in magazines. A better ranking means more rich out of state kids will apply and the school will make more money. As far as I know, having more minorities does not boost your ranking in any way, so once again, what is the compelling interest?
Let me explain this in the simplest terms possible:
You. Are. An. Idiot.
I hope you can understand that.
Wow, thanks for the mature response. Really contributed to this thread with that. You didn't answer my question though.
Letting anyone into a school they can't handle is foolish. If a 163 LSAT and 3.0 gpa minority goes to Yale, odds are the other kids in the class will be smarter and harder working. He or she will then get owned in terms of class ranking, and fail to secure a good job. Even if they do get a BigLaw job, they will not be able to work at the level thats expected of a Yale law graduate. I don't see how this is not logical....
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:39 am
by ravens20
farewelltoarms wrote:ravens20 wrote:There is absolutely nothing wrong with making use of a URM boost; it is well within the rights of any eligible applicant to use it (and they would be foolish not to). However there is no question that such a boost does exist; it is not merely an internet phenomenon. If you want evidence go to lawschoolnumbers.com click on any school and look at the graph of acceptances/waitlists/denials. Go to the green dots in the lower left hand corner that are separated from all of the other green dots and note how they almost all have three letters in parentheses: URM.
Alright I just did this, but I fail to see how this is persuasive. First off, LSN is a website self reported by users, not the law schools themselves. The vast majority of the people that apply to law schools don't use LSN. Perhaps just as many white people got in with those numbers as the minority users, but we'll never know this because of the way the website works.
Secondly, why would a school purposefully want more minorities? This is a more general question, and not really a rebuttal, but still. I don't see how having more minorities will make a law school more prestigious or desirable.
Hmm I suppose you are right that my suggestion doesn't prove it definitively...hell all of those green dots could just be non-URMs lying. But LSN seems like a large enough sample size (especially when the phenomenon seems to occur across so many schools) that it is at least reasonable to assert that there is a boost, even if it is not definitive evidence.
As VanWinkle pointed out, affirmative action does exist and has been addressed and ultimately allowed by the Supreme Court (famous Michigan law case).
As for the question you posed...how wouldn't having minorities enhance the academic and social environment of a law school? So much of law is predicated on perspective...the greater the perspective then the greater the discussion (both in and out of class), and consequently, the greater the academic experience. Having students from different walks of life helps schools to develop lawyers who have the backgrounds/interests to address specific issues as a lawyer. Also, the greater the array of interests of incoming students, then the more diverse the student organizations. And, if nothing else, promoting minorities also means great PR. So law schools have profound and real reasons to promote minorities. As a consequence, for better or worse, affirmative action does exist in law schools.
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:40 am
by Nom Sawyer
Refer to flame pics please. /Thread
Re: Is there actual proof of URM boost?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:42 am
by Zapatero
farewelltoarms wrote:
Wow, thanks for the mature response. Really contributed to this thread with that. You didn't answer my question though.
Letting anyone into a school they can't handle is foolish. If a 163 LSAT and 3.0 gpa minority goes to Yale, odds are the other kids in the class will be smarter and harder working. He or she will then get owned in terms of class ranking, and fail to secure a good job. Even if they do get a BigLaw job, they will not be able to work at the level thats expected of a Yale law graduate. I don't see how this is not logical....
This is a gross exaggeration of the URM boost. Nonetheless, if this is the route you want to take, then you shall never have the right to complain about LSAT and GPA being given too much weight in the admissions process.
