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Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:12 pm
by whuts4lunch
I have heard that some schools place a disproportionate number of scholarship students in particular sections.
Is this true? Is there any evidence of this happening?
Section stacking would, I believe, make it harder for scholarship students to rank, easier for non-scholarship students to rank, and ensure that a particular proportion of scholarship students are unable to renew.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:18 pm
by CE2JD
whuts4lunch wrote:I have heard that some schools place a disproportionate number of scholarship students in particular sections.
Is this true? Is there any evidence of this happening?
Section stacking would, I believe, make it harder for scholarship students to rank, easier for non-scholarship students to rank, and ensure that a particular proportion of scholarship students are unable to renew.
My section was stacked.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:29 pm
by whuts4lunch
What school? Are you a scholarship student? What evidence are you basing your claim on?
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:31 pm
by CE2JD
UVA
No
My section had smarter people than all the other sections
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:39 pm
by whuts4lunch
yoyoma wrote:Hello TLS,
I am a long-time lurker, first time poster. I wanted to first thank everyone that contributes to this site for all of the priceless information I have received.
I am writing because there was a reference to section stacking in another thread, and I wanted to know if this was anything more than a rumor. I recently received a full ride to Minnesota, which was a huge surprise given my decent but not great numbers. Minnesota was not really on my radar, and I more or less applied because of a fee waiver. I originally hoped to sneak into the bottom half of the T14 and pay sticker, but the full ride vaulted Minnesota to the top of my list. A 2.5 is required to keep the scholarship, which does not seem like much, but the concept of section stacking scares me a little. Is this something I need to worry about with Minnesota or is it merely a rumor?
moved to this thread
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:46 pm
by whuts4lunch
bump because this is kinda a big deal...
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:47 pm
by yoyoma
whuts4lunch wrote:yoyoma wrote:Hello TLS,
I am a long-time lurker, first time poster. I wanted to first thank everyone that contributes to this site for all of the priceless information I have received.
I am writing because there was a reference to section stacking in another thread, and I wanted to know if this was anything more than a rumor. I recently received a full ride to Minnesota, which was a huge surprise given my decent but not great numbers. Minnesota was not really on my radar, and I more or less applied because of a fee waiver. I originally hoped to sneak into the bottom half of the T14 and pay sticker, but the full ride vaulted Minnesota to the top of my list. A 2.5 is required to keep the scholarship, which does not seem like much, but the concept of section stacking scares me a little. Is this something I need to worry about with Minnesota or is it merely a rumor?
moved to this thread
Thanks!
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:57 pm
by whuts4lunch
In another thread, someone mentioned that yoyoma would only have to outrank approximately 20% of the students to maintain the scholarship.
That still means that 1 out of 5 students doesn't do that, making it a decently large risk. This would be against mostly scholarship students if the school stacks.
Even if you place top 25%, you have to think that you would probably have placed higher if there was no stacking, right?
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:07 pm
by jlk86
whuts4lunch wrote:I have heard that some schools place a disproportionate number of scholarship students in particular sections.
Is this true? Is there any evidence of this happening?
Section stacking would, I believe, make it harder for scholarship students to rank, easier for non-scholarship students to rank, and ensure that a particular proportion of scholarship students are unable to renew.
Yes- I'd be wary of any school that gives out a lot of scholarships with GPA strings attached- section stacking is a really simple way for them to appear generous to prospectives while ensuring that a ton of that $$ inevitably gets yanked. You can really only hear about it anecdotally from current students, so they can get away with it every year. I hear about this mostly being a noticeable problem at T3/T4 schools, but I've also heard the same from a girl I know at a T50 school & a few other places that have been thrown around in old threads
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:10 pm
by SamSeaborn2016
I'm not sure how common it is but I assume it takes place at least a few schools. I'm quite wary of scholarships with GPA/class ranking requirements, though.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:14 pm
by chadwick218
Tag. Although I am not so sure about section stacking, it is very interesting to note how sections develop very different personalities. A purely random assignment suggests that is is indeed possible that one section may have a disproportionate amount of "scholarship" students than another section.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:21 pm
by whuts4lunch
What is the point of sectioning students? It seems that by doing so, it opens up the possibility that X GPA does not correspond to the same level of performance across sections.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:24 pm
by chadwick218
whuts4lunch wrote:What is the point of sectioning students? It seems that by doing so, it opens up the possibility that X GPA does not correspond to the same level of performance across sections.
Interesting point ... I would be in favor of not having actually doctrinal courses by sections. Quite frankly, I grew very tired of hearing the same irrational voices every single day of the week! Outside of bar review, there was very little opportunity to meet people from other sections. In the end, I imagine that this what years 2 and 3 are for ...
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:28 pm
by sarlis
So it seems that this is a rare occurrence? Also, every scholarship offer I have received have GPa stipulations, I thought that was common/happens in every case.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:30 pm
by whuts4lunch
GPA stipulations are soooo scary. Losing the scholarship not only will cost ~60 thousand dollars (higher or lower depending on how big a scholarship), but not hitting the requisite GPA also means that job opportunities that would allow one to comfortably pay back loans won't be available. I am NOT down with that.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:31 pm
by whuts4lunch
Also, if a scholarship has a GPA stipulation, it gives the school ample incentive to section stack, which would not only increase the risk of losing the scholarship, but almost invariably result in a lower GPA.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:32 pm
by sarlis
Again, how common are GPA stipulations. Every scholly offer I have received has a GPA stipulation.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:33 pm
by whuts4lunch
I don't know. I hear they are common for California schools.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:33 pm
by chadwick218
sarlis wrote:So it seems that this is a rare occurrence? Also, every scholarship offer I have received have GPa stipulations, I thought that was common/happens in every case.
I found that scholarship stipulations became less common the higher ranked the school. For example, I believe that many t-14 scholarships simply require you to be in good academic standing (i.e. don't cheat and turn all finals / writing assingments when due), while a number of T2 schools seemingly had stipulations that would have required me to remain in the top-half.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:35 pm
by vanwinkle
This is mostly common outside T1 schools. I know I read last year that a few schools are especially notorious for this (*cough*Miami*cough*). Your classes are graded on a curve, and you're assigned to your 1L classes by section, so if you've all received a scholarship that requires you stay in the top 1/3 of your class, by default 2/3 of your section is going to have to lose the scholarship after the first year.
I would be extremely wary of any school that mandates minimum GPAs. You can always try to negotiate this; contact the school and tell them, "I'll commit to attending if you remove the minimum GPA requirement," or something along those lines. Their response ought to prove interesting, at least.
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:36 pm
by sarlis
chadwick218 wrote:sarlis wrote:So it seems that this is a rare occurrence? Also, every scholarship offer I have received have GPa stipulations, I thought that was common/happens in every case.
I found that scholarship stipulations became less common the higher ranked the school. For example, I believe that many t-14 scholarships simply require you to be in good academic standing (i.e. don't cheat and turn all finals / writing assingments when due),
while a number of T2 schools seemingly had stipulations that would have required me to remain in the top-half.
This has been the case with me so far. But, does this automatically imply that the schools section stack?
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:43 pm
by whuts4lunch
it gives them incentive to stack, and that is enough for me to be very wary
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:01 pm
by usuaggie
I just got an offer from McGeorge with a GPA stipulation. Top 1/3. This is pretty relaxed compared to some others I have seen (top 10, 15, 20 percent). You are going to try your hardest anyway, right? So just do better than the other kids and be one of the ones to keep your scholly
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:08 pm
by chadwick218
sarlis wrote:chadwick218 wrote:sarlis wrote:So it seems that this is a rare occurrence? Also, every scholarship offer I have received have GPa stipulations, I thought that was common/happens in every case.
I found that scholarship stipulations became less common the higher ranked the school. For example, I believe that many t-14 scholarships simply require you to be in good academic standing (i.e. don't cheat and turn all finals / writing assingments when due),
while a number of T2 schools seemingly had stipulations that would have required me to remain in the top-half.
This has been the case with me so far. But, does this automatically imply that the schools section stack?
Although I have heard such rumors, I generally do not believe this to be the case. In terms of section stacking, if anything, I think that as universities try to artificially manufacture diversity and create a balance by ensuring that every section has an appropriate number of students coming from different backgrounds and viewpoints. Ultimately, I don't think that law schools care about their students whatsoever so long as the tuition checks come in job placement is satisfactory!
Re: Section Stacking?
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:27 pm
by yoyoma
vanwinkle wrote:This is mostly common outside T1 schools. I know I read last year that a few schools are especially notorious for this (*cough*Miami*cough*). Your classes are graded on a curve, and you're assigned to your 1L classes by section, so if you've all received a scholarship that requires you stay in the top 1/3 of your class, by default 2/3 of your section is going to have to lose the scholarship after the first year.
I would be extremely wary of any school that mandates minimum GPAs. You can always try to negotiate this; contact the school and tell them, "I'll commit to attending if you remove the minimum GPA requirement," or something along those lines. Their response ought to prove interesting, at least.
Hey vanwinkle,
I've been reading TLS for a while and have noticed that you give a lot of useful, well thought out advice. I was wondering if you knew anything about Minnesota and their policies regarding section stacking. My situation is quoted at the beginning of the thread. Thanks!