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Ok guys, this is a big deal, and something I'm trying to help with, so I need some sound facts and advice. A friend of mine in the pre-law fraternity at my school informed me earlier at our meeting that he is going to blatantly make up his personal/diversity statement, in hopes of it bumping him up. I am trying desperately to talk him out of it because I think it's wrong, but he seems to think that he won't get caught because it's just a statement and the law schools/bar can't/won't be able to find out some major instance that "happened" when he was younger that made him who he is (I think he said it was something like being the lead in a play and how that affected him) . I'm not sure the specifics of the actual statement, but I was hoping some of you well-informed people on here would be able to tell me the facts about this, so I can relay this back to him. Whether you think it's wrong, right, etc., I need cold hard facts about this because I don't want my friend to get in trouble. Thanks gus!

Every state bar has a Character & Fitness section where they pretty thoroughly scrutinize you, and most of them will request your law school application and review it. C&F includes them asking you questions about various things they find, and they may ask your friend questions about the things on his Personal Statement. If they discover he lied on it that's going to be held against him pretty severely; if he lies to the C&F committee as well, he's likely to be permanently disbarred.

To quote one of my favorite cop shows, "When we figure out the truth, and we will..."

suthernbelle453 wrote:Ok guys, this is a big deal, and something I'm trying to help with, so I need some sound facts and advice. A friend of mine in the pre-law fraternity at my school informed me earlier at our meeting that he is going to blatantly make up his personal/diversity statement, in hopes of it bumping him up. I am trying desperately to talk him out of it because I think it's wrong, but he seems to think that he won't get caught because it's just a statement and the law schools/bar can't/won't be able to find out some major instance that "happened" when he was younger that made him who he is (I think he said it was something like being the lead in a play and how that affected him) . I'm not sure the specifics of the actual statement, but I was hoping some of you well-informed people on here would be able to tell me the facts about this, so I can relay this back to him. Whether you think it's wrong, right, etc., I need cold hard facts about this because I don't want my friend to get in trouble. Thanks gus!

Well, your friend is completely unethical and will make a god awful officer of the court if he gets that far. But he is probably correct. Making up non-verifiable facts seems like it would be tough to be caught. Unless someone (you) report him to LSAC or the schools he is applying to, of course. If it is any comfort being the "lead in a play" isn't going to make a damn bit of difference to an application. Also, it is easy to tell when people are being insincere about personal narratives. Most of the time, it just reads as being off. Hopefully an adcom used to reading hundreds of these essays will be able to sense that.

I don't know how LS's would ever find out that he made all of it up. I would hope he'd just feel like a dick...but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.

Unfortunately, unless you're prepared to write in an anonymous tip to the admissions offices, you might just have to suck it up and have faith that someday he'll get his.

vanwinkle wrote:Every state bar has a Character & Fitness section where they pretty thoroughly scrutinize you, and most of them will request your law school application and review it. C&F includes them asking you questions about various things they find, and they may ask your friend questions about the things on his Personal Statement. If they discover he lied on it that's going to be held against him pretty severely; if he lies to the C&F committee as well, he's likely to be permanently disbarred.

To quote one of my favorite cop shows, "When we figure out the truth, and we will..."

This is not my understanding of how C&F works. They verify things like court records, and discrepancies between your law school application and you bar application. I don't believe they interview family or friends as part of the process. The Justice Department does however, as part of background checks. So he could screw himself there.

Yeah, unfortunately, that's what I assumed. I figured that it would be very hard for the bar or any law school to prove that an event or conversation that happened many years ago, never happened. Hopefully, I can talk him into being a good person and not doing it, but who knows. I wish him all the best, of course, and I would never want something bad to happen to him, but it's just unfortunate that he feels compelled to lie. He said that he knows tons of people that lied on their personal statements or diversity statements and didn't get caught. It doesn't make it right though.

jks289 wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Every state bar has a Character & Fitness section where they pretty thoroughly scrutinize you, and most of them will request your law school application and review it. C&F includes them asking you questions about various things they find, and they may ask your friend questions about the things on his Personal Statement. If they discover he lied on it that's going to be held against him pretty severely; if he lies to the C&F committee as well, he's likely to be permanently disbarred.

To quote one of my favorite cop shows, "When we figure out the truth, and we will..."

This is not my understanding of how C&F works. They verify things like court records, and discrepancies between your law school application and you bar application. I don't believe they interview family or friends as part of the process. The Justice Department does however, as part of background checks. So he could screw himself there.

What do you mean by Justice Department? Like if he's going to work for the government or something? I also agree with you on the C&F. I assumed it was more like they're checking to see if you lied about DUI's and stuff.

suthernbelle453 wrote:

jks289 wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Every state bar has a Character & Fitness section where they pretty thoroughly scrutinize you, and most of them will request your law school application and review it. C&F includes them asking you questions about various things they find, and they may ask your friend questions about the things on his Personal Statement. If they discover he lied on it that's going to be held against him pretty severely; if he lies to the C&F committee as well, he's likely to be permanently disbarred.

To quote one of my favorite cop shows, "When we figure out the truth, and we will..."

This is not my understanding of how C&F works. They verify things like court records, and discrepancies between your law school application and you bar application. I don't believe they interview family or friends as part of the process. The Justice Department does however, as part of background checks. So he could screw himself there.

What do you mean by Justice Department? Like if he's going to work for the government or something? I also agree with you on the C&F. I assumed it was more like they're checking to see if you lied about DUI's and stuff.

I just meant that in background screening for the Justice Department (USAO) they do in fact interview friends and family. However, C&F does not.

I think you should probably just forget about it. People make unethical choices all the time. He is aware he is essentially a fraud, and doesn't care. Fortunately it affects nothing but a karmic sense of right and wrong. Save your energy for the injustice you can affect once you are a lawyer.

jks289 wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Every state bar has a Character & Fitness section where they pretty thoroughly scrutinize you, and most of them will request your law school application and review it. C&F includes them asking you questions about various things they find, and they may ask your friend questions about the things on his Personal Statement. If they discover he lied on it that's going to be held against him pretty severely; if he lies to the C&F committee as well, he's likely to be permanently disbarred.

To quote one of my favorite cop shows, "When we figure out the truth, and we will..."

This is not my understanding of how C&F works. They verify things like court records, and discrepancies between your law school application and you bar application. I don't believe they interview family or friends as part of the process. The Justice Department does however, as part of background checks. So he could screw himself there.

I didn't say they'd interview friends and family. I meant they may ask the friend about his own Personal Statement, especially if they notice any discrepancies in it. It's easy to tell a lie, but not very easy to tell one that can survive a careful set of eyes. Remember, the people he'll be answering to are people who are trying to uphold a high standard of ethics, and who have enough experience dealing with people that they can recognize unethical behavior.

I'm not saying it's certain he'll get caught, but if they get suspicious and start asking questions about something he said on his PS, what's he gonna do, start making up more lies on the spot that are consistent enough to satisfy a panel of lawyers?

It's a $200,000 gamble, because you'll have spent that much for nothing if you can't pass the bar. And if they don't catch it then, they can still disbar you later if they ever do find out you lied.

drop your friend. or be his friend til he gets you into something equally as brilliant. also, who makes up they were in a play? if that was better than any real life experience, I might go drown myself. that cant be as good as it gets.

Sounds like "You buddy" is you. Trying to assess pros and cons of cheating??? Go for it buddy.

A Pre-Law Fraternity??????????? WTF?

Shouldn't you kids be out stealing panties and slammin' down beer bongs?

jtxcounitah wrote:drop your friend. or be his friend til he gets you into something equally as brilliant. also, who makes up they were in a play? if that was better than any real life experience, I might go drown myself. that cant be as good as it gets.

Seriously. If you were going to make something up, wouldn't you make it something compelling? "I was the lead in a play when I was a child."

BFD

Imagination FAIL

Mr. Matlock wrote:A Pre-Law Fraternity??????????? WTF?

Shouldn't you kids be out stealing panties and slammin' down beer bongs?

And slide................... With 50 babes in bikinis...................Delta....

JustDude wrote:

Mr. Matlock wrote:A Pre-Law Fraternity??????????? WTF?

Shouldn't you kids be out stealing panties and slammin' down beer bongs?

And slide................... With 50 babes in bikinis...................Delta....

God Bless him!

DukeHopeful wrote:

jtxcounitah wrote:drop your friend. or be his friend til he gets you into something equally as brilliant. also, who makes up they were in a play? if that was better than any real life experience, I might go drown myself. that cant be as good as it gets.

Seriously. If you were going to make something up, wouldn't you make it something compelling? "I was the lead in a play when I was a child."

BFD

Imagination FAIL

TITCR... but a lot of the stuff you'd write about that would actually get you into schools are the kind of things people who've been through it won't write about. I know if I wanted to go all-out I could've written a Yale-please-take-me essay, but at the time I didn't want to write about that much of my life (and I still don't).

vanwinkle wrote:

DukeHopeful wrote:

jtxcounitah wrote:drop your friend. or be his friend til he gets you into something equally as brilliant. also, who makes up they were in a play? if that was better than any real life experience, I might go drown myself. that cant be as good as it gets.

Seriously. If you were going to make something up, wouldn't you make it something compelling? "I was the lead in a play when I was a child."

BFD

Imagination FAIL

TITCR... but a lot of the stuff you'd write about that would actually get you into schools are the kind of things people who've been through it won't write about. I know if I wanted to go all-out I could've written a Yale-please-take-me essay, but at the time I didn't want to write about that much of my life (and I still don't).

Meh, despite having given earlier advice I think more and more this is the OP trying to ascertain if he/she can make up facts on the essay and if any of us can think of a reason one might get caught. I think the "play" this is just a stand in for a more significant but equally unverifiable story. Why would you get so upset about someone manufacturing a dumb detail (thread title) and ask so many follow up questions otherwise.

This is exactly why you see people bitching that law schools don't care about 'softs'. They know that most people embellish and some just straight up lie. Sure, they do want the person who has done amazing things, but unless that can be proven they just have to take it witha grain of salt. I personally don't care because my application isn't based on anything special, just the regular GPA/LSAT, but I understand why some people could be angry.

IDK, I mean this person could be legit, or not. Honestly, who gives a flying flip? Who the hell am I to pass judgment on this person or say "hey dude this is really you asking this question, so eff off". If the OP is concerned about his/her friend, then great and good karma to him/her.

It seems to me though that the OP is just curious and very uninformed, and genuinely wants to help. Don't fault the kid for it. We don't know this person, and we don't know this persons friend, so who are we to know what's really going on?

And, if your friend is really going to write a PS about his play and if it meant something to him, then good for him. IDK if it will help, but I'm rooting for you and your friend. You keep on being a good friend and a good person.

jks289 wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:TITCR... but a lot of the stuff you'd write about that would actually get you into schools are the kind of things people who've been through it won't write about. I know if I wanted to go all-out I could've written a Yale-please-take-me essay, but at the time I didn't want to write about that much of my life (and I still don't).

Meh, despite having given earlier advice I think more and more this is the OP trying to ascertain if he/she can make up facts on the essay and if any of us can think of a reason one might get caught. I think the "play" this is just a stand in for a more significant but equally unverifiable story. Why would you get so upset about someone manufacturing a dumb detail (thread title) and ask so many follow up questions otherwise.

Well, the opposite happens with a much stronger story: It becomes so shocking/unusual that someone wants to verify it, and they suspect there's information about it out there. If you write about how your stepfather repeatedly raped you growing up and your respect from the law comes from how the law ultimately saved you, they can, um, look up whether the law ever prosecuted your stepfather (or if you ever even had a stepfather).

You kind of have to go with fairly mundane, because anything too extraordinary becomes verifiable very quickly.

suthernbelle453 wrote:Ok guys, this is a big deal, and something I'm trying to help with, so I need some sound facts and advice. A friend of mine in the pre-law fraternity at my school informed me earlier at our meeting that he is going to blatantly make up his personal/diversity statement, in hopes of it bumping him up. I am trying desperately to talk him out of it because I think it's wrong, but he seems to think that he won't get caught because it's just a statement and the law schools/bar can't/won't be able to find out some major instance that "happened" when he was younger that made him who he is (I think he said it was something like being the lead in a play and how that affected him) . I'm not sure the specifics of the actual statement, but I was hoping some of you well-informed people on here would be able to tell me the facts about this, so I can relay this back to him. Whether you think it's wrong, right, etc., I need cold hard facts about this because I don't want my friend to get in trouble. Thanks gus!

First and foremost, ask your friend to look into his soul and seriously reconsider committing a fraud. If he persists, you will simply tell him you no longer have respect for him as an upright individual and that you can no longer trust him to be honest in all of his conducts.

Second, if he refuses to cease and desist after you talked to him, talk to one of his closest friends who has a reputation of being honest and get him/her to talk to your friend with you to ask your friend to reconsider.

Third, if he still refuses, talk to his parents and get them to ask him to reconsider.

Now that you have given him three chances to change course, if he still persists, then it is up to you to exercise your duty to report this irregularity to the authority: here, either a school administrator overseeing the pre-law society or someone at the LSAC (Do this if and only if your friend strikes out). It would've been a completely different matter had he told you nothing. But now that you're involved, you can't just walk away or else your integrity will also be in question.

Sincerely.

BigFatPanda wrote:

suthernbelle453 wrote:Ok guys, this is a big deal, and something I'm trying to help with, so I need some sound facts and advice. A friend of mine in the pre-law fraternity at my school informed me earlier at our meeting that he is going to blatantly make up his personal/diversity statement, in hopes of it bumping him up. I am trying desperately to talk him out of it because I think it's wrong, but he seems to think that he won't get caught because it's just a statement and the law schools/bar can't/won't be able to find out some major instance that "happened" when he was younger that made him who he is (I think he said it was something like being the lead in a play and how that affected him) . I'm not sure the specifics of the actual statement, but I was hoping some of you well-informed people on here would be able to tell me the facts about this, so I can relay this back to him. Whether you think it's wrong, right, etc., I need cold hard facts about this because I don't want my friend to get in trouble. Thanks gus!

First and foremost, ask your friend to look into his soul and seriously reconsider committing a fraud. If he persists, you will simply tell him you no longer have respect for him as an upright individual and that you can no longer trust him to be honest in all of his conducts.

Second, if he refuses to cease and desist after you talked to him, talk to one of his closest friends who has a reputation of being honest and get him/her to talk to your friend with you to ask your friend to reconsider.

Third, if he still refuses, talk to his parents and get them to ask him to reconsider.

Now that you have given him three chances to change course, if he still persists, then it is up to you to exercise your duty to report this irregularity to the authority: here, either a school administrator overseeing the pre-law society or someone at the LSAC (Do this if and only if your friend strikes out). It would've been a completely different matter had he told you nothing. But now that you're involved, you can't just walk away or else your integrity will also be in question.

Sincerely.

Friends do not rat on each other. There is no "duty to report" in this case, and even if the OP presents her concerns to a figure of authority the matter will likely be dismissed out of hand due to there being no proof of the alleged conversation taking place.

p_r wrote:Friends do not rat on each other. There is no "duty to report" in this case, and even if the OP presents her concerns to a figure of authority the matter will likely be dismissed out of hand due to there being no proof of the alleged conversation taking place.

Yeah, you're gonna be a real ethical lawyer who'll make the legal community proud, I can tell.

jks289 wrote: Meh, despite having given earlier advice I think more and more this is the OP trying to ascertain if he/she can make up facts on the essay and if any of us can think of a reason one might get caught. I think the "play" this is just a stand in for a more significant but equally unverifiable story. Why would you get so upset about someone manufacturing a dumb detail (thread title) and ask so many follow up questions otherwise.

Wow what a revelation. Of course OP is making story up, and its all about him. Thats why he even gives what the story of "His friend" will be about. But thats OK. Cheating will catch up eventually with this douche, rest assured. Plus, you can write a great PS even if it is about horse manure. Efff it and move on. He even posted his PS the same day as this post!

Funny how the OP is no longer active on the site. Proof no one cares this much about their "friend's" applications.