55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it? Forum

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carasrook

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by carasrook » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:58 pm

rzzza wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
rzzza wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Get above their 75th LSAT to maximize scholarships.

You can always ask and they'll probably say no if they don't consider the schools peers. I have no idea who these schools consider as peers, so just ask and see what they say.

Lastly, and I will never stop saying this in cases like yours, really think about the type of law you'll be practicing coming out of these schools (assuming you get a JD required job at all), because you're essentially guaranteeing your best outcome as small firm work and non-competitive criminal law work. If those things don't interest you, you shouldn't be going to law school.
Alright, cool thanks.

So is it better to negotiate after the first seat deposit deadline or before? I've seen people say both. I've seen people say its not a good idea because submitting multiple seat deposits might anger the schools and make them pull your scholarship offers. And I've also seen people claim that law schools will have more money in the pool to offer students after the deadline has passed, so they're more amenable to negotiations. I don't see any way to negotiate after the deadline without submitting multiple deposits though.
It doesn't matter, negotiate when you have things to negotiate with. If you have better offers, go to them with it. If you don't, ask nicely because of how important this financial decision is for your future. There doesn't have to be etiquette in negotiating, only balances in power. If you don't have any leverage, they won't budge before, during, or after when seat deposits are due.

And please, for the love of all that is holy, take my last piece of advice seriously, because as it stands, you're considering going into six figures of debt to ultimately make $45k/year in the best, most likely case. That's financial suicide and you will be crushed by that debt without any recourse for the rest of your life. Your credit will go to hell if you default on your loans. You won't be able to create any sort of financial freedom because that debt will be hanging around your neck. Your life will be miserable, and you have no idea if you'll even like this career. Do you really want to throw caution to the wind on a career you very well might hate that could lead you down a path of financial ruin? You can reason with yourself all you want that this is a decision that's already been made and you're definitely going to one of these schools, but that's just not true. You don't have to perform financial hari kari because your job right now bores you. That's what you're doing taking on $100k+ of debt to get the jobs Kent or Loyola will more than likely get you (if you get a JD required job at all).

Please tell me this rationale makes sense to you. Please tell me you're considering how potentially dire you're making your financial situation in doing this, and that you don't want to saddle yourself with that much debt for a job that won't service the debt. If you want to be that cavalier with being under the crushing weight of debt you can't pay off, then pick whichever school appeals to you most, because it really doesn't matter. But never forget that you were vehemently and thoroughly warned about the implications of the decision you're considering.
I understand the risk and thanks for your warnings. My parents want me to go to law school and I want to make them happy before they...die of old age. They've had law school set on their brains for me for years and they just won't understand at all if I tell them I'm scared of the debt and decide not to pursue any higher education at all and stick with the sales thing. To them an attorney is a more proud occupation than a salesman is. Debt is a reality for any type of education in this country, be it undergrad or post-grad degrees. Debt is unavoidable (unless you're the elite 1% and either have parents pay for everything or get offered full rides) so I just view this 60k-70k of debt as the price that's paid for admission.

I've been told till I'm blue in the face not to go to law school, that its a terrible investment and I'll most likely end up destitute and living behind a dumpster somewhere if I decide to go to law school. My parents understand NONE OF THIS. They still think law school is a golden ticket to a $100k a year job. They'll be terribly, terribly disappointed if I decline law school and I'd rather live with 70k of student loan debt than to see them disappointed. This is my last chance to make something of my self. Nothing else is an option. I'm not going to be a doctor, I'm not going to business school. I'm terrible at math. It's either law school or inside sales for the rest of my life. I'd rather take a gamble to get that J.D. next to my name on the ol' resume.
OP: I really wanted to make Loyola work for me, mainly because it's located in Chicago. I've found there are a LOT of K-JDs attending these schools, whose parents are supporting everything, and they aren't really considering the decision. And therefore, there are a lot of students willing to pay for it. I was above both 75ths and still only received a scholarship covering 75% of tuition. I was also told after trying to negotiate w/ full rides from other, higher ranked schools that they *do not* give more than that. This is corroborated by LSN, which shows people with numbers higher than me getting the same scholarships.

The problem with Chicago is that there's a big gap between schools - the gap between Northwestern and Loyola is massive. If you can't get into Northwestern with money (which I certainly cannot) - Loyola/Kent become tempting. But, after a ton of research, I realized Loyola/Kent are NOT good decisions, based on employment #s, especially when you're paying for it. I understand where you're coming from (except, i guess, the whole 'willing to go into debt for a career you aren't really interested in' thing; and the parental influence thing), but I just wanted to give you a heads up - Loyola does not offer full scholarships. And, this is coming from someone who wants to practice what everyone else generally considers 'shit law'.

rzzza

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by rzzza » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:04 pm

Bumping this to give an update and provide some closure for anyone who's interested. I ended up going to Loyola. I made a few threads here during my 1L year complaining about my shitty grades. People here tried to talk me out of going to Loyola and many said I should drop out. I still can't say if they were right or not but that's for you to judge.

I graduated with a 2.7 GPA (yuck) and passed the bar on the first try. I received an offer from a mid-size firm for $65,000. I left Loyola with $185,000 in debt. That includes undergraduate and law school debt. This will seem like a huge fail to many here but I'm not despondent about it. I plan to attack the debt aggressively and pay it off in 3 to 4 years. $65k starting salary for an entry level associate fresh out of law school doesn't seem awful to me. It's not big law money but I wasn't expecting that. The salary will grow with experience. In 4 years I expect to have the debt paid off and be making somewhere around $95k a year.

nixy

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by nixy » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm

You have a good attitude about the salary, but do you expect to be able to make loan payments of $42,650 a year on a $65k salary?

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cavalier1138

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:32 am

nixy wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm
You have a good attitude about the salary, but do you expect to be able to make loan payments of $42,650 a year on a $65k salary?
Quoting for emphasis. You literally cannot pay off $185,000 in 4 years on that salary even if someone else paid all your other expenses. It's impossible. Hell, even if the most ambitious loan forgiveness package ($50,000) makes it through congress, you still wouldn't be able to pay off that amount and afford rent/food.

But there was a bigger issue that was never resolved for you: Do you actually want to practice law now? Or are you just taking the best-paying job available to you?

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by rzzza » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:20 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm
You have a good attitude about the salary, but do you expect to be able to make loan payments of $42,650 a year on a $65k salary?
I'll have some help from investments I made a few years ago. (cannabis company pre-U.S. legalization) I don't know how much it will grow but I expect it will be an extra $40k at the minimum and possibly quite a bit more. It's sitting at $20k now.

I will have no problem living like a broke college student for a few more years because I lived that way all my life. If I attack the debt aggressively I can certainly get it down to a manageable level within 4-5 years. I've minimized my expenses more than most people could or would.

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nixy

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by nixy » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:24 pm

"get it down to a manageable level in 4-5 years" isn't at all the same as "pay it off in 3 to 4 years." You get that your $65k salary will be more like $49k take home, right?

rzzza

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by rzzza » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:25 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:32 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm
You have a good attitude about the salary, but do you expect to be able to make loan payments of $42,650 a year on a $65k salary?
Quoting for emphasis. You literally cannot pay off $185,000 in 4 years on that salary even if someone else paid all your other expenses. It's impossible. Hell, even if the most ambitious loan forgiveness package ($50,000) makes it through congress, you still wouldn't be able to pay off that amount and afford rent/food.

But there was a bigger issue that was never resolved for you: Do you actually want to practice law now? Or are you just taking the best-paying job available to you?
It's very doable. Rent and food shouldn't cost more than 20k a year. I won't be making $65k for the rest of my life, that's just a first year salary.

Doesn't everyone take the best paying job available to them? I've invested a ton in law. You gotta hand it to me, I have a lot of perseverance. This a career with a high potential salary limit. If I can make a lot of money and help clients solve problems at the same time, that's a career worth appreciating. Yes I want to be a great attorney.

The debt is just something I view as a temporary obstacle. If I could do it again I think I'd go to John Marshall, an even lower ranked school, because of the full ride they offered.

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cavalier1138

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:12 am

rzzza wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:25 pm
cavalier1138 wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:32 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:14 pm
You have a good attitude about the salary, but do you expect to be able to make loan payments of $42,650 a year on a $65k salary?
Quoting for emphasis. You literally cannot pay off $185,000 in 4 years on that salary even if someone else paid all your other expenses. It's impossible. Hell, even if the most ambitious loan forgiveness package ($50,000) makes it through congress, you still wouldn't be able to pay off that amount and afford rent/food.

But there was a bigger issue that was never resolved for you: Do you actually want to practice law now? Or are you just taking the best-paying job available to you?
It's very doable. Rent and food shouldn't cost more than 20k a year. I won't be making $65k for the rest of my life, that's just a first year salary.

Doesn't everyone take the best paying job available to them? I've invested a ton in law. You gotta hand it to me, I have a lot of perseverance. This a career with a high potential salary limit. If I can make a lot of money and help clients solve problems at the same time, that's a career worth appreciating. Yes I want to be a great attorney.

The debt is just something I view as a temporary obstacle. If I could do it again I think I'd go to John Marshall, an even lower ranked school, because of the full ride they offered.
I'm absolutely baffled by your repayment math, even with your "investments" helping out.

But to answer your question: No, not everyone takes the best-paying job available to them. Many attorneys deliberately seek out lower-paying jobs because of their interest in the practice area (e.g. lateraling from biglaw to government service). I'm glad you apparently discovered your passion for the law while you were in school, and I hope that your financial future is as rosy as you've predicted. Just don't try and convince other people that this was somehow a smart move. You've ended up in the exact position people predicted for you when you started these threads: making the same amount (or less) than you could already make in your old job, with a ton more debt.

nixy

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Re: 55%-60% scholarship at Loyola or Chicago-Kent; worth it?

Post by nixy » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:00 am

rzzza wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:25 pm
It's very doable. Rent and food shouldn't cost more than 20k a year. I won't be making $65k for the rest of my life, that's just a first year salary.
What is the increase in salary each year at your firm?

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