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I'm applying next cycle and just want to be realistic about my expectations. Thanks!

Great shot pretty much everywhere.

There aren't many data points, but here are some search parameters that I think are decent.

With pretty much exactly your numbers:


With more data points (much lower minimums), slightly higher maximums. Your chances should be better than this:

Thank you for this, I really need to start familiarizing myself with law school numbers. So, in your opinion, with a 165 first try, would a retake be advisable?

Lol enjoy Harvard bro

arklaw13 wrote:Lol enjoy Harvard bro

I appreciate the positivity man, I'm just trying to stay realistic haha

Atmosphere wrote:Thank you for this, I really need to start familiarizing myself with law school numbers. So, in your opinion, with a 165 first try, would a retake be advisable?

Hopfully you've found this thread: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 4&t=195443

Number of Black Test Takers At or Above 2SD (159.5): 335.455 (335-336)
At or Above 2.5SD (164): 87.51 (87-88)
At or above 3SD (168): 14.585 (14-15)

So 3 more points would move you from ~T80 AAs to ~T15 AAs.

'For the fall 2010 entering class, there were a total of 7,789 law school applicants who had both LSAT scores of 165 or above and UGPA of 3.5 or above. Of that number, just 63 were black.'

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Documents/ACR%20LSAC.pdf

i'm not sure what the number is right now, but it can't be much higher now since for this cycle the number of applicants with LSAT's at and above 165 is 7,238

< 140 2,850 -11.5%
140–144 4,003 -7.7%
145–149 6,258 -12.4%
150–154 8,618 -10.5%
155–159 8,717 -11.0%
160–164 6,663 -10.9%
165–169 4,540 -6.5%
170–174 2,125 5.8%
175–180 573 7.1%

So with your GPA, you seem to be in an excellent spot. However, since you scored a 165 on your first try, I suggest you max out your retakes. A few more points might give you those full schollies at Columbia and Chicago or at least make it easier to be admitted into the T6 in case the rest of you application is "meh."

You're a baller, my brother. Thank God.

Just be sure to write an excellent statement (get an accomplished writer to look over it at least once) and prepare for the interview.

See you in Cambridge.

I sincerely thank all of you for the kind words. TLS is an amazing resource. A June retake seems like it might be the move.

Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

+1.

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

Thank you for this. I'm not one to lean on my URM status for hope, I'm undoubtedly going to retake in June. LSN definitely shocked me out of complacency though!

As someone with numbers very close to yours and going through this cycle. Don't listen to all the advice you get on this site. Look at the data, but not the blanket statements ppl make. Do you have a decent shot at H (and YS to a lesser degree) with a 165? Yes. But as stated previously, two more points would make your chances much better.

If you attend a highly ranked undergrad you're in much better shape than if you don't. I've had to wait much longer than people with basically the exact numbers I have because I didn't attend a top undergrad. I have good softs and a remarkable life story and those things haven't helped as much as a few more points on the LSAT would have. I know others with similar numbers who were dinged at H with no interview this cycle. Ppl whose softs were just as strong as mine and with great life stories.

This site and LSN are good tools to use to get an idea of what CAN happen for you. But the best thing you can do is put together a strong package and hope for the best. I've read this hundreds of times on this site and it is really true, URM cycles are unpredictable. There's no other way to put it. Good luck!

Atmosphere wrote:

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

Thank you for this. I'm not one to lean on my URM status for hope, I'm undoubtedly going to retake in June. LSN definitely shocked me out of complacency though!

Glad to hear it, don't sell yourself short. Look at LSN for AA URMs with your GPA and a high 170's LSAT. I'm talking free-rides at CCN, etcetera. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but it's a matter of positioning yourself for the absolute best possible outcome

I would retake if I were you. As it is, you're probably competitive everywhere (someone got into Yale and Stanford last cycle with your numbers), but as it stands now, your results will probably depend on your softs/ personal statement. If you got in the 170s, particularly the mid-170s, I think you'd probably have your pick of whatever law school you wanted to attend.

I retook for the 170s with a high 160s score but my GPA is lower than yours. I'm still waiting on HYS, fwiw.

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

Thank you for this. I'm not one to lean on my URM status for hope, I'm undoubtedly going to retake in June. LSN definitely shocked me out of complacency though!

Glad to hear it, don't sell yourself short. Look at LSN for AA URMs with your GPA and a high 170's LSAT. I'm talking free-rides at CCN, etcetera. Obviously nothing's guaranteed, but it's a matter of positioning yourself for the absolute best possible outcome

That's how I'm feeling right now, if I leave it up in the air I'll always be wondering 'what if', I want to be as sure as possible!

DPhoenix wrote:As someone with numbers very close to yours and going through this cycle. Don't listen to all the advice you get on this site. Look at the data, but not the blanket statements ppl make. Do you have a decent shot at H (and YS to a lesser degree) with a 165? Yes. But as stated previously, two more points would make your chances much better.

If you attend a highly ranked undergrad you're in much better shape than if you don't. I've had to wait much longer than people with basically the exact numbers I have because I didn't attend a top undergrad. I have good softs and a remarkable life story and those things haven't helped as much as a few more points on the LSAT would have. I know others with similar numbers who were dinged at H with no interview this cycle. Ppl whose softs were just as strong as mine and with great life stories.

This site and LSN are good tools to use to get an idea of what CAN happen for you. But the best thing you can do is put together a strong package and hope for the best. I've read this hundreds of times on this site and it is really true, URM cycles are unpredictable. There's no other way to put it. Good luck!

Definitely. The unpredictability is killing me though! My school isn't stellar, but it's not horrible so that is also something I need to take into consideration.

teampeeta wrote:I would retake if I were you. As it is, you're probably competitive everywhere (someone got into Yale and Stanford last cycle with your numbers), but as it stands now, your results will probably depend on your softs/ personal statement. If you got in the 170s, particularly the mid-170s, I think you'd probably have your pick of whatever law school you wanted to attend.

I retook for the 170s with a high 160s score but my GPA is lower than yours. I'm still waiting on HYS, fwiw.

I'm definitely going to retake. I'm glad I posted here and got all of your input. I'll be retaking June for a 170+, the 165 was with -5 LG, which I think I can improve on. Back to studying!

And good luck with HYS!

Atmosphere wrote:

teampeeta wrote:I would retake if I were you. As it is, you're probably competitive everywhere (someone got into Yale and Stanford last cycle with your numbers), but as it stands now, your results will probably depend on your softs/ personal statement. If you got in the 170s, particularly the mid-170s, I think you'd probably have your pick of whatever law school you wanted to attend.

I retook for the 170s with a high 160s score but my GPA is lower than yours. I'm still waiting on HYS, fwiw.

I'm definitely going to retake. I'm glad I posted here and got all of your input. I'll be retaking June for a 170+, the 165 was with -5 LG, which I think I can improve on. Back to studying!

And good luck with HYS!

dude you can definitely improve on -5 on LG. Drill each game and I mean each game until you are crushing them and then drill some more. I was literally doing LG in my dreams and went -1 on test day (and it bugs me to this day because I shouldn't have missed it. I like to think it was a misbubble )

Good luck with the retake. you're gonna be fine.

I just can't crack under pressure haha. Thanks man!

You are in great shape for that 170+ retake. LG is by far the easiest section to improve on. If you would've said RC I would have a different response. But if LG is what is holding you back all you need is sustained drilling up until the test.

I'll also add don't be HYS or bust. Many of us URMs have gotten amazing scholarship offers this cycle from non-HYS schools. Offers I'm not sure ppl in past cycles had. It's a buyers market! Retake and don't kill yourself if you're not 168+. You'll still have an amazing cycle.

DPhoenix wrote:You are in great shape for that 170+ retake. LG is by far the easiest section to improve on. If you would've said RC I would have a different response. But if LG is what is holding you back all you need is sustained drilling up until the test.

I'll also add don't be HYS or bust. Many of us URMs have gotten amazing scholarship offers this cycle from non-HYS schools. Offers I'm not sure ppl in past cycles had. It's a buyers market! Retake and don't kill yourself if you're not 168+. You'll still have an amazing cycle.

I just need to stay focused on drilling all the LG's, I know I'm getting better/more consistent. I feel that, HYS has just always seemed like a benchmark, but surely I'll warm up to whatever offers come my way. It's hard to stop yearning for the prestige though haha

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

This X1000.

Apply early, and you'll not early know early, but I suspect your chances will be better. I'm a URM. My cycle is preeeety crazy so far, and my numbers are similar to yours (although a little better--even than that of the WL'd @ H applicant).

ETA: I applied late to most schools.

Brettanomyces wrote:

calle_25 wrote:

Atmosphere wrote:Just saw an AA male get WLed at H with a 3.7/167, so I'm kinda freaking out now. Is that known to happen? It makes me want to shoot for 170+

100% retake until you get 170+. You have nothing to lose but so much to gain. I am a URM, and ended up with a bunch of WL's with a similar LSAT (including a H waitlist). I don't mean to sound off-putting, but my cycle would have turned out much differently with just a few more points on the LSAT. If you aren't applying until next cycle, it makes absolutely zero sense not to retake. Additionally, if you have a 170+ and apply early, you'll know early. Having gone through the process, I cannot overstate how stressful it has been getting decisions this late in the game (I applied in Jan). While your chances with a 165 are still great, it may mean a delay in hearing back while schools consider other candidates. A 170+ protects you from this. So, retake, apply early, and enjoy life

This X1000.

Apply early, and you'll not early know early, but I suspect your chances will be better. I'm a URM. My cycle is preeeety crazy so far, and my numbers are similar to yours (although a little better--even than that of the WL'd @ H applicant).

ETA: I applied late to most schools.

I'm going to get my apps in as soon as I'll be able to, both my LoR's are locked in. Just stalked your profile, I'll likely have a 3.8 by the next fall semester and I'm hoping to hit that 170 so I'll be following the rest of your cycle closely...are you still waiting on HYS?