Thoughts on upcoming SCOTUS ruling? Forum

[VegasLaw702]

A ruling is expected any day on a case heard back in October regarding affirmative action in schools. Anyone concerned this could change the landscape for future URMs applying to law school?

[El Principe]

I'd like to say I wouldn't rely on it because my test scores and grades have been on the level of other peers from other ethnic backgrounds, but I'd be lying if I wouldn't hope for a boost, particularly in the realm of scholarships (if such preference exists).

So if the prior rulings on affirmative action get overturned, I personally won't be distraught, but I can imagine it could negatively impact diversity due to differences on test scores.

In several of the psychometric classes I've had to take, studies have consistently found deficits of about 1 standard deviation below the mean of white students in AAs alone in aptitude tests. There's no clear consensus on what exactly is the reason for these lower scores, because some studies have controlled for socio-economic status, and there's still about a 1/2 standard deviation gap. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

[VegasLaw702]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

[El Principe]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I'm speaking towards objective data concerning aptitude tests, I'm not making this up... As I said earlier, I personally don't have any problems with standardized tests and score higher than most people, so as an AA URM, I agree with you in the sense that what you're saying makes sense at face value.

But for whatever reason, when minorities have significantly different scores on tests, even when extraneous variables are controlled for... I think you misinterpreted what I said. I'm not implying that minorities are inherently disadvantaged in testing for no other reason than just being minorities; I'm suggesting that there are other factors that happen to coincide with race that affect different groups' test scores, such as socio-economic status.

[dawyzest1]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I'm speaking towards objective data concerning aptitude tests, I'm not making this up... As I said earlier, I personally don't have any problems with standardized tests and score higher than most people, so as an AA URM, I agree with you in the sense that what you're saying makes sense at face value.

But for whatever reason, when minorities have significantly different scores on tests, even when extraneous variables are controlled for... I think you misinterpreted what I said. I'm not implying that minorities are inherently disadvantaged in testing for no other reason than just being minorities; I'm suggesting that there are other factors that happen to coincide with race that affect different groups' test scores, such as socio-economic status.

And I'll be the one to trot out the well worn fact that socio-economic status is a stronger correlate to standardized test performance than race.

In terms of what the decision will mean, I know the expectation is for a gutting of Grutter, but Kennedy has consistently said that he believes there is some valid system of taking race into account for admissions, he just hasn't seen it yet. Perhaps the Texas system will meet his elusive standards and he'll side with the liberals.

Even if Grutter is reversed, I think it is important to note that diversity is a value that the schools themselves hold dear, so I would imagine that they will find their ways to achieve some level of diversity while complying with the new law of the land. Also, there is significant question as to whether the decision will apply to private schools at all. So, my guess is that we are going to be close to status quo (but this was definitely on my mind as I rushed to apply to law school THIS cycle even though I was comically late).

[qwertyboard]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I think it's not the ethic background that causes a series of problems and then a poor performance on tests. I think it's more linked to socio-economic background-doesnt matter if the person is black or white, mexican, whatever... Any person that comes from a disadvantaged background is prone to perform poorly on any standardized test. The thing here is that minorities (AA, PR, AM, NA,) are disproportionately less well off than any other group in the US. So Schools concluded that minorities should get a boost to compensate for a disadvantage for which they had no control to promote diversity.

I don't agree with the sentence in bold. Not everyone in society begins the race in the same start line. Minorities and poor european-americans don't have the same "chance". You have to understand that the necessity most of the minorities have to go through entails more than just material things. It's cost of opportunity, having to work full time through college, abuse, family members in jails, etc. We don't have the same experiences and in general we don't perform as well as other groups in standardized tests.

Even if we all did receive the same education (I think we don't) that doesn't guarantee we all have the same chance. Like I mentioned, necessity is more than just material things. It's a very difficult life overall with very different experiences.

[qwertyboard]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I'm speaking towards objective data concerning aptitude tests, I'm not making this up... As I said earlier, I personally don't have any problems with standardized tests and score higher than most people, so as an AA URM, I agree with you in the sense that what you're saying makes sense at face value.

But for whatever reason, when minorities have significantly different scores on tests, even when extraneous variables are controlled for... I think you misinterpreted what I said. I'm not implying that minorities are inherently disadvantaged in testing for no other reason than just being minorities; I'm suggesting that there are other factors that happen to coincide with race that affect different groups' test scores, such as socio-economic status.

And I'll be the one to trot out the well worn fact that socio-economic status is a stronger correlate to standardized test performance than race.

In terms of what the decision will mean, I know the expectation is for a gutting of Grutter, but Kennedy has consistently said that he believes there is some valid system of taking race into account for admissions, he just hasn't seen it yet. Perhaps the Texas system will meet his elusive standards and he'll side with the liberals.

Even if Grutter is reversed, I think it is important to note that diversity is a value that the schools themselves hold dear, so I would imagine that they will find their ways to achieve some level of diversity while complying with the new law of the land. Also, there is significant question as to whether the decision will apply to private schools at all. So, my guess is that we are going to be close to status quo (but this was definitely on my mind as I rushed to apply to law school THIS cycle even though I was comically late).

+1

[Throttle]

Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race.

Lol I hope to god not everyone's K-12 was as bad as mine. Also, if everyone's public school gives them the same level of education then explain public school rankings. Also fear and hunger have big impacts on education and general well being. Kinda hard to study if you hear gun shots and haven't had a decent meal. Yeah I hope to god your wrong about all public schools being the same.

[dawyzest1]

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I struggle to find the right words to explain how absolutely wrong this is. Where you go to public school has a dramatic effect on the quality of education you receive. Let's take one example:

Boston (urban school district): % of kids scoring at least proficient on state ELA test: 46%
Newton (suburban school district, 15 minutes from downtown Boston): % of kids scoring at least proficient on the same test: 81%

[bosmer88]

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

I struggle to find the right words to explain how absolutely wrong this is. Where you go to public school has a dramatic effect on the quality of education you receive. Let's take one example:

Boston (urban school district): % of kids scoring at least proficient on state ELA test: 46%
Newton (suburban school district, 15 minutes from downtown Boston): % of kids scoring at least proficient on the same test: 81%

+1. I am struggling too.

As I have been told before, OP I do not think this topic is appropriate for this board per this sticky http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=200437

Just want to give a heads up.

[dawyzest1]

+1. I am struggling too.

As I have been told before, OP I do not think this topic is appropriate for this board per this sticky http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=200437

Just want to give a heads up.

I was hoping we'd hear from you when I posted that (Some Day... ). You're also absolutely right. I think discussing the Fisher case's impact on future admissions practices is okay, but once we go too deep into the origins and merits of AA that's forbidden land.

[bosmer88]

+1. I am struggling too.

As I have been told before, OP I do not think this topic is appropriate for this board per this sticky http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=200437

Just want to give a heads up.

I was hoping we'd hear from you when I posted that (Some Day... ). You're also absolutely right. I think discussing the Fisher case's impact on future admissions practices is okay, but once we go too deep into the origins and merits of AA that's forbidden land.

LOL, just flew in today! I could discuss this topic all day, but with where it is headed (as you said-origins and whatnot) I don't want an aneurysm.

[dawyzest1]

LOL, just flew in today! I could discuss this topic all day, but with where it is headed (as you said-origins and whatnot) I don't want an aneurysm.

No, no...I was making a poor attempt to reference the fact that I believe you are a tried and true TFA alum..."Some Day All Children..." And I know you could preach on this and I could too (education is my bag). Thank goodness you were wise enough to go to HLS. That means we might talk about this in person one day.

[bosmer88]

LOL, just flew in today! I could discuss this topic all day, but with where it is headed (as you said-origins and whatnot) I don't want an aneurysm.

No, no...I was making a poor attempt to reference the fact that I believe you are a tried and true TFA alum..."Some Day All Children..." And I know you could preach on this and I could too (education is my bag). Thank goodness you were wise enough to go to HLS. That means we might talk about this in person one day.

Ahhh, I missed the reference. It has been a long day lol. I actually was typing out a response about my experiences as a preschool teacher and how since universal preschool does not exist in the United States, there can be stark differences among children, often poor and/or children of color, that manifest at ages such as 2 or 3. Seriously... education is not equal for all. I deleted that response because I had to stop myself, ya know, from getting that aneurysm.

Yeah, I am fully committed to H. Also, I am glad that you are interested in education! Sad that you are deferring for next year though. I look forward to discussing our interest in education when you do start at H!

[VegasLaw702]

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race.

I struggle to find the right words to explain how absolutely wrong this is. Where you go to public school has a dramatic effect on the quality of education you receive. Let's take one example:

Boston (urban school district): % of kids scoring at least proficient on state ELA test: 46%
Newton (suburban school district, 15 minutes from downtown Boston): % of kids scoring at least proficient on the same test: 81%

Allow me to clarify. What I meant was that the constant in the equation is the school/curriculum. The variables are the students attending. So yes, every student who attends School A is attending the same school, and learning the same stuff as the kid seated next to them.

As far as which public schools are better than others, that is a different story, one that is pointless to get into. Not all public schools are created equal, I'm sure we can all agree on this. The whole point was that if you have 100 kids going to School A, they are all going to get the same lesson plans, textbooks, and homework. A black student isn't given different material to learn than a white student or hispanic student. We could go on for days as to what factors lead to the variance in performance, but as a URM I can speak from personal experience that my being URM played no role in whether or not I was able to learn the material any better than someone who was not URM.

That being said, I don't know how this got off track from the original discussion of whether or not the ruling would have an impact on law school admissions for URMs moving forward. El Principe took the liberty to play the token victim URM for a moment, and I had to buck at the argument being presented, based on my personal experience, and it snowballed from there.

[VegasLaw702]

+1. I am struggling too.

As I have been told before, OP I do not think this topic is appropriate for this board per this sticky http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=200437

Just want to give a heads up.

I agree 100%. I think the discussion should stay on track as it relates to the poll and question posed in the original poast. This could be a landmark decision if it is reversed (which I doubt it will be), and I feel that as people applying to law school with URM status, we should be paying close attention.

[El Principe]

El Principe took the liberty to play the token victim URM for a moment, and I had to buck at the argument being presented, based on my personal experience, and it snowballed from there.

I'd like to say I wouldn't rely on it because my test scores and grades have been on the level of other peers from other ethnic backgrounds, but I'd be lying if I wouldn't hope for a boost, particularly in the realm of scholarships (if such preference exists).

So if the prior rulings on affirmative action get overturned, I personally won't be distraught, but I can imagine it could negatively impact diversity due to differences on test scores.

I really really don't think you read my post. I never played the "token victim URM." I specifically said I don't care personally, and that it really doesn't affect me. As a matter a fact, that was the first thing I said... whether you disagree with the rest of what I said is entirely up to you, but the fact of the matter is, I wasn't referring to myself in the rest of it. I don't get how that makes me the "token URM victim". I wouldn't have even have had to say any of this is you had simply read, but now, almost a full day later, you still have my name in your mouth about something I really didn't convey?... Bro, what the hell did I do to you that's making you so salty?

[Lacepiece23]

. All we know is that some test material is biased against minorities, but not exactly why...

As a URM, I cannot agree with you here. Everyone goes through the same public schools growing up, and has the same chance at getting an education, regardless of race. I'm not considering private schools, because only a very small % of kids go there for grades K-12. If you are predisposed to thinking that, then it will manifest itself by default. Some minorities just automatically think the deck is stacked against them, and will thus perform accordingly because their subconscious will not allow otherwise.

You can't be serious. Its a known fact that public schools are still highly segregated and poor blacks go to the same schools with poor hispanics, and middle class white kids go to school with each other with a few minorities sprinkled in. You can't be serious about this statement. Want to end AA go with Marshall's opinion in San Antonio v Rodriguez, then we wouldn't need it anymore.

[vanwinkle]

We do not permit AA debates in the on-topic forums. People are welcome to give advice on how to apply as a URM, but we don't permit arguments about whether it's fair or right or whatever, because that's unfair to the people in the on-topics who want advice.

There's a sticky at the top of this forum that says this. Thanks.