URM Male Ding Statistics Forum

Ikki · Post by **Ikki** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:27 pm

blacklawboss wrote:
Moxie wrote:
tooswolle wrote:I thought I'd respond to this post for a few reasons. First, because it seems schools claim to want diversity yet reject urm students like crazy. Second, to notice what kind of trend there is in admissions; from the anecdotal evidence it seems like even being MA doesn't give you a boost at all...WTF is up with that???? My final reason because someone mentioned the implementation of diversity in the rankings system. Frankly I would be glad if they did it, not because I'd benefit but because others would and and we'd move that much close to equality because let's face it schools care about rankings and if urm's help them they'd recruit us like crazy.
Schools will accept URMs with lower numbers, but there are enough "high-achieving" URMs for these top schools to reject people with LSAT < 160 or GPA < 3.0. URMs do help them, by allowing them to claim their "diverse".

And reflecting on my cycle last year as an AA male, I did better than: a) my white counterparts, b) AA females with similar numbers on LSN, c) other URMs. I think the combination of race and gender is the best way to look at URM cycles.

EDIT: I agree with the post above that higher education does not include enough diversity, but law schools are clearly lowering standards for URMs, and I trust that they make their decisions to provide a well-rounded but also intelligent student body.
A lot of the problems lie in Undergraduate studies. So many URM's are 1st generation college students, so they are happy to go anywhere while the majority class of America goes to top tier universities. It becomes the natural progression to attend a top tier law school from there. Also the learning from top tier universities better prepares students for graduate schools, and graduate school test's like the lsat, gmat, mcat, and gre. To quote Malcolm Gladwell from his book Outliers from the study of diversity students in UMich law school, once they were in and graduated with a JD they did equally as good as their white counterparts. It's not race, but opportunity and exposure in education. These schools know that and are trying to right the wrongs for the most part, but there aren't a lot of URM's especially AA and PR men trying to attend graduate schools.

It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:27 pm

tooswolle wrote:I agree with the sentiment of building a solid and qualified class. But numbers only go so far, for example a presiding justice of a court of appeals wrote my letter, I'm friends with a senior tax manager at a larger firm and I don't mean to name drop. But I'm using it as an example that there is more to people then their numbers, like charisma and street smarts. Moreover if the field was leveled from day one and both the urm and non urm student had the same opportunities in life would their be a gap? I don't know in general my frustration is with the system and my perceptions of the lack of opportunities for urm's.

No offense, but law schools aren't impressed by fancy names on LOR's they want to hear from people who really know and have interacted with you. Street smarts are really only good for the streets. It's about passion and taking advantage of the opportunity. I poured my life onto my PS and conveyed my passion. I think the Adcom's felt it. I will say that I am sub 160 lsat, but a lot of life and career exp bridged the gap for me.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:32 pm

It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

Ikki I am not disagreeing with you, but notice that I said natural progression. Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school? I know a few kids who went to top schools from a public high school, but Most of my friends who went to independent day school or boarding school ended up at a school like HYS. you understand my point?

Ikki · Post by **Ikki** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:36 pm

blacklawboss wrote:It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

Ikki I am not disagreeing with you, but notice that I said natural progression. Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school? I know a few kids who went to top schools from a public high school, but Most of my friends who went to independent day school or boarding school ended up at a school like HYS. you understand my point?

I understand that, but there is nothing inherently barring us from going to HYS simply because we attended a large public university. Look at this threadhttp://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=19882 the meanLSAT score for a Harvard UG graduate is a 166, 165 for Yale, and 164 at Stanford, I really doubt that the majority (even half) of those scoring lower than their school's mean, that want to attend law school, ended up at one of HYS.

tooswolle · Post by **tooswolle** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:36 pm

Wish I could add much but I've only heard from two schools so far. Pm me and I'll tell you. As quanitfying there is no easy way to see it but let's be honest if your family immigrated here, if you came from nothing and built a middle class life for your family (yes I've worked alot lol) and you have people who someone who came from where you did don't know that speaks volume. In the end I know I didn't do hot in undergrad but there's mitigating factors. Once I attend law school I will live on my savings and apply myself to my true potential. Anyways enough of me, I thoroughly agree with the point the above poster made. The lack of quality education is the bedrock to the fundamental inequality urm's face. For example sear colonias on the Internet they will show you the squalor some Mexican Americans endure because of systemic exploitation. Maybe I'm optimistic but when I hear that all men are created equal and I read the 14th amendment I believe, which is why I feel strongly against the inequalities that exist.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:38 pm

tooswolle wrote:I agree with the sentiment of building a solid and qualified class. But numbers only go so far, for example a presiding justice of a court of appeals wrote my letter, I'm friends with a senior tax manager at a larger firm and I don't mean to name drop. But I'm using it as an example that there is more to people then their numbers, like charisma and street smarts. Moreover if the field was leveled from day one and both the urm and non urm student had the same opportunities in life would their be a gap? I don't know in general my frustration is with the system and my perceptions of the lack of opportunities for urm's.

While the bolded is true, there is a correlation between those numbers and law school success, so they'll continue to use them to judge applicants.

Of course there's more to people than their numbers, but I don't know what that has to do with URMs not being in higher education? Furthermore, thats why schools take account of soft factors such as work experience, extracurriculars, etc. It doesn't get as much weight as numbers, but you can still stand out through those means or your personal statement.

Justathought · Post by **Justathought** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:39 pm

blacklawboss wrote:It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

Ikki I am not disagreeing with you, but notice that I said natural progression. Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school? I know a few kids who went to top schools from a public high school, but Most of my friends who went to independent day school or boarding school ended up at a school like HYS. you understand my point?

I actually agree with you here, and its clear that your two views are not incompatible. Its actually getting worse too, at least for students in public universities interested in the graduate programs based outside of the hard sciences. Today's public schools are seeing their liberal arts budgets slashed in favor of science based programs. This is in an effort to make the population more akin to places like India of China, where so many of the new young scientists are coming from. Is this a bad thing? Maybe not at first glance, but the end result is, that down the road, public universities may be more like trade schools, and the only place you can learn about Milton, Habermas, or men of that ilk is at places like Yale and Harvard. Elite schools with elite prices for elite peoples.

Public education is still a young and novel idea, only really emerging after the enlightenment. It may not last forever in the form we know it today.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:42 pm

Ikki wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

Ikki I am not disagreeing with you, but notice that I said natural progression. Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school? I know a few kids who went to top schools from a public high school, but Most of my friends who went to independent day school or boarding school ended up at a school like HYS. you understand my point?
I understand that, but there is nothing inherently barring us from going to HYS simply because we attended a large public university. Look at this threadhttp://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=19882 the meanLSAT score for a Harvard UG graduate is a 166, 165 for Yale, and 164 at Stanford, I really doubt that the majority (even half) of those scoring lower than their school's mean, that want to attend law school, ended up at one of HYS.

Thats median of All students and not including specific URM #'s from those schools. TRUST me someone from HYS CCNY undergrad isn't applying to Rutgers or St. Johns law school. anything under BU would be uncivilized.

lisjjen · Post by **lisjjen** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:47 pm

blacklawboss wrote:
Ikki wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:It's nice that we receive boost to bring up the number of URMs in the legal profession, but I still think that barring extreme circumstances, a URM going to a large public university can still find himself at a top law school.

Ikki I am not disagreeing with you, but notice that I said natural progression. Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school? I know a few kids who went to top schools from a public high school, but Most of my friends who went to independent day school or boarding school ended up at a school like HYS. you understand my point?
I understand that, but there is nothing inherently barring us from going to HYS simply because we attended a large public university. Look at this threadhttp://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=19882 the meanLSAT score for a Harvard UG graduate is a 166, 165 for Yale, and 164 at Stanford, I really doubt that the majority (even half) of those scoring lower than their school's mean, that want to attend law school, ended up at one of HYS.
Thats median of All students and not including specific URM #'s from those schools. TRUST me someone from HYS CCNY undergrad isn't applying to Rutgers or St. Johns law school. anything under BU would be uncivilized.

Don't count on it. There's people with 2.7, 155 from those schools too. Just because they went to a T10 doesn't mean they can impress the adcomms with that.

Ikki · Post by **Ikki** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:48 pm

blacklawboss wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:
Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school?
Thats median of All students and not including specific URM #'s from those schools. TRUST me someone from HYS CCNY undergrad isn't applying to Rutgers or St. Johns law school. anything under BU would be uncivilized.

I was just answering your question up there, I do think they apply to something lower than HYS. I also know of a girl that is attending USD law and did her UG at Harvard. I guess the main thing I want to get across is that all these sentiments that "the system has failed us", "institutions don't do enough to bring diversity to the classroom", do very little to improve our situation.

tooswolle · Post by **tooswolle** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:55 pm

To respond to blacklawboss, the people I talked about are people that I know and know me through my academic work. Who knows why they took a shine to me but they did and they showed it in their lor's. Also the senior tax manager has even offered his mentorship in the field of tax law. But that's not the point since I don't want to make this about me and why I should get an acceptance at a decent school. This is more to address the lack o opportunities urm's have. It's only been 60 years since we were able to receive an integrated education and 50 years until we started receiving equal rights. I'm just pissed that even though we've come so far urm's still get the shaft even with a "boost" which is Applied differently to candidates.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:56 pm

Ikki wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:
Do you think a URM who went to HYS for undergrad would be applying to anything lower for law school?
Thats median of All students and not including specific URM #'s from those schools. TRUST me someone from HYS CCNY undergrad isn't applying to Rutgers or St. Johns law school. anything under BU would be uncivilized.
I was just answering your question up there, I do think they apply to something lower than HYS. I also know of a girl that is attending USD law and did her UG at Harvard. I guess the main thing I want to get across is that all these sentiments that "the system has failed us", "institutions don't do enough to bring diversity to the classroom", do very little to improve our situation.

Agreed. Don't want to steer this thread the wrong way and invite trolls who shall remain unnamed for now

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:57 pm

tooswolle wrote:To respond to blacklawboss, the people I talked about are people that I know and know me through my academic work. Who knows why they took a shine to me but they did and they showed it in their lor's. Also the senior tax manager has even offered his mentorship in the field of tax law. But that's not the point since I don't want to make this about me and why I should get an acceptance at a decent school. This is more to address the lack o opportunities urm's have. It's only been 60 years since we were able to receive an integrated education and 50 years until we started receiving equal rights. I'm just pissed that even though we've come so far urm's still get the shaft even with a "boost" which is Applied differently to candidates.

Bottom line stay positive and try to switch the mentality from "Why me?" to "Why not me?"

tooswolle · Post by **tooswolle** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:02 pm

Totally agree with that sentiment man. I've been fortunate to get to where I am. I've seen others who haven't been so fortunate, I've seen people who do backbreaking labor for minimum wage. I guess what it comes down to is the feeling that I need a top school to help me change the system (I know that sounds weak but let's face it a T25 JD opens doors and allows you to be in a position to bring about change). Anyways that's l I got to say about that. To everyone best of luck, you've already done a big thing graduate college and next is law school!!

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:05 pm

tooswolle wrote:Totally agree with that sentiment man. I've been fortunate to get to where I am. I've seen others who haven't been so fortunate, I've seen people who do backbreaking labor for minimum wage. I guess what it comes down to is the feeling that I need a top school to help me change the system (I know that sounds weak but let's face it a T25 JD opens doors and allows you to be in a position to bring about change). Anyways that's l I got to say about that. To everyone best of luck, you've already done a big thing graduate college and next is law school!!

I'll give you a lil advice that goes against all the TLS stands for T14 or T25 only matters for like the 1st 5 years of your career dealing with the debt from law school and 1st job. what really matters is the person behind the degree. most of these tls kids are spewing regurgitated opinions they read somewhere else. I wont lie I want to wear a hoodie from a T14 school an brag about it but if I end up at T50 with $$$ best believe I'm gonna make it do what it do! Good luck on the rest of your cycle bro!

Trustbuster · Post by **Trustbuster** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:07 pm

Thought I would add

MA
167
3.85

Ding:
Yale
Berkeley

WL:
Chicago
Duke
Penn
Notre Dame
UVA

Held: (I'm expecting never to hear back/ding'd)
NW
Mich
Harvard
Columbia

himynameis · Post by **himynameis** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:13 pm

AA male

164/3.15
*did not attend Ivy; did not submit any "Why X?" essays

IN
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
Georgetown
UT-Austin
(couple lower ranked schools)

Waitlisted
Chicago
UVA

Rejected
n/a

Pending
some of the top schools not listed

I can't stay to chat, but I'll check back in later in the cycle. Good luck everyone and stay encouraged.

jacketman03 · Post by **jacketman03** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:43 pm

AA Male
161/2.5x

Dinged
Northwestern
UVA
Michigan State
Texas Tech
Denver

Waitlisted
Oklahoma

I'm really hating my GPA right about now.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:46 pm

jacketman03 wrote:AA Male
161/2.5x

Dinged
Northwestern
UVA
Michigan State
Texas Tech
Denver

Waitlisted
Oklahoma

I'm really hating my GPA right about now.

Yeah that gpa is a killer...

lisjjen · Post by **lisjjen** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:48 pm

himynameis wrote:AA male

164/3.15
*did not attend Ivy; did not submit any "Why X?" essays

IN
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
Georgetown
UT-Austin
(couple lower ranked schools)

Waitlisted
Chicago
UVA

Rejected
n/a

Pending
some of the top schools not listed

I can't stay to chat, but I'll check back in later in the cycle. Good luck everyone and stay encouraged.

I'm kicking myself right now that I didn't apply to Berkley.

jacketman03 · Post by **jacketman03** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:49 pm

blacklawboss wrote:
jacketman03 wrote:AA Male
161/2.5x

Dinged
Northwestern
UVA
Michigan State
Texas Tech
Denver

Waitlisted
Oklahoma

I'm really hating my GPA right about now.
Yeah that gpa is a killer...

Yeah, but I've still got some apps out that hopefully give me some options.

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:50 pm

jacketman03 wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:
jacketman03 wrote:AA Male
161/2.5x

Dinged
Northwestern
UVA
Michigan State
Texas Tech
Denver

Waitlisted
Oklahoma

I'm really hating my GPA right about now.
Yeah that gpa is a killer...
Yeah, but I've still got some apps out that hopefully give me some options.

Good finish strong bro!

jd20132013 · Post by **jd20132013** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:25 am

blacklawboss · Post by **blacklawboss** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:40 am

jd20132013 wrote:"down the road, public universities may be more like trade schools, and the only place you can learn about Milton, Habermas, or men of that ilk is at places like Yale and Harvard."

that's a very sad thought.

To answer the topic quesiton though it seems to have gone in a different direction...

Held at NW last week. AA Male 3.7/170

Are you a recent grad? I saw the rest of your cycle bro they must be on something over there!

jd20132013 · Post by **jd20132013** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:54 am

URM Male Ding Statistics Forum

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