Howard V. Case Western Forum

[Lord Quas]

Hey all,

For anyone who has knowledge of either school, or the job markets they tend to "feed," please fell free to chime in with any advice or opinion.

Good luck to all

[DavidYurman85]

Where do you want to practice?

Based on a lot of "ifs" - you can remain in the top of your class at Howard, the economy picks up, you want to stay in the DMV area - assuming all of the above I think Howard is the better option. I know a few kids at the law school and big law firms are still recruiting there, but most of those kids are also at the top of their class and I'm talking top 5%.

[newyorker88]

I generally advise against Howard, low ranking, not diverse, and horrible bar passage rate but in this case I think it's the better option. If your at the top of the class you'll have amazing career prospects and much more portability.

[creamedcats]

I'd say Howard. You have family connections nearby, COL difference isn't THAT big, Howard is cheaper on sticker price anyway, and you'll have every firm in the USA at your on-campus interviews, assuming you do well enough to attract their attention. Case is fine if you want to practice in Cleveland/Ohio, and it does well in DC for a regional school, but if you want to remain in DC after graduation, Howard is stronger there. Case is significantly higher ranked and does okay outside it's region, but unless there's something you particularly like about Case (did you visit?) over Howard, I'd go with Howard.

But - no money at all? Call both schools and see if they can give you anything. This is not a small amount of debt.

[PDaddy]

I generally advise against Howard, low ranking, not diverse, and horrible bar passage rate but in this case I think it's the better option. If your at the top of the class you'll have amazing career prospects and much more portability.

WRONG! Howard's performance and reputation belie its ranking, and it is extremely "diverse". For most whites, diversity means "mostly white" with a few ethnic minorities sprinkled in here and there. And, despite Howard's poor "first-time bar passage rate", employers wait that second time around. Howard grads are being paid $135K+ with an 88% employment rate upon graduation and a 94% employment rate after 9 months. That is nothing short of staggering! There are top-25 schools that don't match those stats. If Howard can improve its bar passage rate to 90% (and one day soon it will do so without changing its demography), it will be at least a top-50 school...maybe top-40.

[newyorker88]

I generally advise against Howard, low ranking, not diverse, and horrible bar passage rate but in this case I think it's the better option. If your at the top of the class you'll have amazing career prospects and much more portability.

WRONG! Howard's performance and reputation belie its ranking, and it is extremely "diverse". For most whites, diversity means "mostly white" with a few ethnic minorities sprinkled in here and there. And, despite Howard's poor "first-time bar passage rate", employers wait that second time around. Howard grads are being paid $135K+ with an 88% employment rate upon graduation and a 94% employment rate after 9 months. That is nothing short of staggering! There are top-25 schools that don't match those stats. If Howard can improve its bar passage rate to 90% (and one day soon it will do so without changing its demography), it will be at least a top-50 school...maybe top-40.

How in the world is it diverse? Do you know what the word diverse means? Unless you think it means non-white which it does not I am correct it is not diverse. and what do what some white people think have to do with me or the definition of a word? And how am i wrong about its ranking? that's a fact. and I didn't say anything about its reputation what are you talking about? You're comprehension skills are awful.

[Aberzombie1892]

What would the total cost difference be over three years?

If Case costs <$15,000 more than Howard a year, Case all the way if you are a URM (which I'm assuming).

People talk about how incredible Howard is for URM's but then realize that it only places 16% into top firms (which I'm assuming you are interested in). Granted Howard's OVERALL percentage placed in top firms is higher than Case's. However employers will hire URM's far more deeply from a school like Case than Howard. Trust me on that.

So...the ultimate issue would be comparing COA.

On a separate note, US News stuff:

Careers : Case Western Reserve University

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2008 administrations)
State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar OH
School's bar passage rate for first-time test takers 88.0%
Statewide bar passage rate for first-time test takers 87.8%
Class of 2008 Graduates
Total graduates 214
Graduates employed at graduation 79.4%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 95.2%
Starting Salaries of 2008 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $76,000
Median private sector starting salary $110,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $145,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 68%
Median public service starting salary $49,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2008)
Percent employed in academia 2.0%
Percent employed in business and industry 17.0%
Percent employed in government 17.0%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 5.0%
Percent employed in law firms 47.0%
Percent employed in public interest 11.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 1.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 3.1%
2008 Graduates Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state 46%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 28
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 2.1%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 14.1%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 52.4%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.5%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 16.2%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.5%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 3.1%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 6.3%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 3.1%
Employment location unknown 0.0%

Careers : Howard University

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2008 administrations)
State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar MD
School's bar passage rate for first-time test takers 64.1%
Statewide bar passage rate for first-time test takers 85.4%
Class of 2008 Graduates
Total graduates 152
Graduates employed at graduation 72.4%
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 85.5%
Starting Salaries of 2008 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $105,000
Median private sector starting salary $160,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 60%
Median public service starting salary $52,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2008)
Percent employed in academia 0.0%
Percent employed in business and industry 10.0%
Percent employed in government 16.0%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 16.0%
Percent employed in law firms 50.0%
Percent employed in public interest 3.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 5.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 3.2%
2008 Graduates Employment Location
Graduates employed in-state 36%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 0%
Number of states where graduates are employed 21
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 1.7%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 22.5%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 4.2%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 1.7%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 60.7%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.8%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 1.7%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 5.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.7%
Employment location unknown 0.0%

***NOTE: 20% of Howard's graduates were employed in a position that did not require bar passage and 16% of Case's graduates were the same.

Oh and I did a martindale.com attorney search

Case had 5259 results
Howard had 1662

(for listing purposes, I did not list a state that had fewer than 200 attorneys)

Case attorneys by state:
Ohio 2869
New York 295
DC 220

Howard attorneys by state:
DC 496

Notes:
1. The fact that Howard only has 1662 attorneys on martindale would scare the s*** out of me. Look up any random law school and you will see what I mean. This can be interpreted to mean [1] they didn't report their job on martindale (but why would they be the only school that does not do this?...) or [2] they don't have good jobs to begin with (which is the far more likely answer).
2. Case has more attorneys in New York than Howard (at least in relevant positions). That is all.

[legalized]

Hey all,

In at Case and Howard with no scholarship $$. Just wanted to get some opinions on which to choose. I'm a black male. Not sure what type of law I want to practice. I have family in D.C and North V.A, but not in Ohio. Tuition is lower at Howard, but cost of living is lower in Cleveland. Job prospects seem to be better out of Howard, but Case seems to have a good reputation as well.

For anyone who has knowledge of either school, or the job markets they tend to "feed," please fell free to chime in with any advice or opinion.

Good luck to all

Howard. If you don't get into a T14 and you're a black male Howard is the next best thing you can do for your career, assuming you get really nice grades.

And, if HOWARD gave you no money, that means you need to retake your LSAT and up your score. I have heard they forgive the men more than the women cause there are always a ton of black women applying there...not enough men.

You are already familiar with the test and what's required, go to the nearest bookstore and library, buy, beg, borrow either that Kaplan book everybody likes or the Powerscore Bible(s) you need the most, and the latest 10 or so tests...read through and work through the books in a week or two, and take a practice test (full length) every other day between a week from now and June 7, and do this!

Thank me later. lol June results give you time to beg one or the other some money and use the acceptance at the other school as potential leverage.

[yabbadabbado]

Between the two, I would go to Howard and find somewhere cheap to live with other law students in order to save $ on living expenses.