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i doubt that being a Kurd is a URM? Is it? Should I even mention it?

anandamide wrote:i doubt that being a Kurd is a URM? Is it? Should I even mention it?

It could be the subject of an interesting diversity statement.

People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

mhernton wrote:People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

*slow clap*

No

Fellow Kurd here

I wrote about being Kurdish in my PS because it related a lot to what I studied/did in UG and also is a big reason why I want to study transnational issues in law school.

No, it's definitely not a URM, but I think it definitely can warrant a diversity statement especially if you're into the culture and/or speak the language.

mhernton wrote:People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

This should be posted on all the URM threads or URM wannabes question threads.

Great response

*Woops

Yah definitely mention it. I am middle eastern and I beleive that has somewhat affected my cycle (either that or my engineering degree or maybe both....).

I'm Greek, who cares? Opa.

Kohinoor wrote:So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

Agreed. Diversity extends beyond the checked boxes. If you come from an ethnic background and feel that your life experiences are different than many other potential applicants, then sure, write a diversity statement saying so. Don't speak in a super broad manner, though. Be specific. Don't just tell them what you are. This is America, the big melting pot. Tell them who you are, how you'll use your experiences, and why they should care.

Since there is no "box," you'll have no problem thinking outside of it =)

I'm Greek, too!

sofibee wrote:

Kohinoor wrote:So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

Agreed. Diversity extends beyond the checked boxes. If you come from an ethnic background and feel that your life experiences are different than many other potential applicants, then sure, write a diversity statement saying so. Don't speak in a super broad manner, though. Be specific. Don't just tell them what you are. This is America, the big melting pot. Tell them who you are, how you'll use your experiences, and why they should care.

Since there is no "box," you'll have no problem thinking outside of it =)

I'm Greek, too!

Kalimera! Poli kala tou eipes aftounou... polous malakes naetho pou then xeroune to kolo apo to kefali.

haha, nai to kserw. apo pou eisai?

sofibee wrote:haha, nai to kserw. apo pou eisai?

Sou estiela "pm" - w/email.

.

Didn't read through all the replies, but if you are from a country with a Kurdish minority, YES. The whole struggle for independence over there makes it a very relevant topic in the field of international law.

EDIT: I don't think Kurds are considered URM, but I'd be interested to see how many are in U.S. law schools.

op-ti wrote:

mhernton wrote:People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

This should be posted on all the URM threads or URM wannabes question threads.

Great response

No, it's not a great response. URM absolutely beats being generic Kurdish. The simple fact is that being black, Native American, or Mexican gives you the equivalent of a boost of several LSAT points that being Kurdish or Romani or Tamil or whatever will not. The only exception might be if you have a heart-wrenching story of oppression that you personally experienced. But you should absolutely write a diversity statement about being Kurdish anyway, because it may give you a boost if you're borderline, just like any other soft factor.

Edit: Also unless you're going to HYS, forget about international law. It's not an actual career choice, despite how everybody going into law school seems to want to do it.

op-ti wrote:

mhernton wrote:People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

This should be posted on all the URM threads or URM wannabes question threads.

Great response

+1

CoaltoNewCastle wrote:

op-ti wrote:

mhernton wrote:People put entirely too much stock into being a URM or not being a URM. Being a Kurd and having something to say about it is more important than just being a URM. If you intend to go into international law and protect the rights of peoples without homelands then well its awesome. I have a friend I went to business school with who is European male. He was also one of the people that was jailed for questioning the way of life in Yugoslavia. He was in the military and believed what his leaders told him about the evils of the west, until he had a chance to go for himself. He returned and started speaking out about what he had seen and was arrested. He broke out of prison and defected, and had been in the US under political asylum working as an engineer in northern california. That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM. Looking into your heritage as a kurd, see what it means to you, and say something interesting about your people's battle for a homeland against the Saddam Hussein, and the Turks, and what it means to be a people without a homeland and therefore representation in the world. Talk about how Chemical Ali came up with a his own brand of a final solution against your people in Northern Iraq and the international community did nothing to protect you, and how that makes you feel as a person.

So does anyone care?? The answer is only if you make them care...

This should be posted on all the URM threads or URM wannabes question threads.

Great response

No, it's not a great response. URM absolutely beats being generic Kurdish. The simple fact is that being black, Native American, or Mexican gives you the equivalent of a boost of several LSAT points that being Kurdish or Romani or Tamil or whatever will not. The only exception might be if you have a heart-wrenching story of oppression that you personally experienced. But you should absolutely write a diversity statement about being Kurdish anyway, because it may give you a boost if you're borderline, just like any other soft factor.

Edit: Also unless you're going to HYS, forget about international law. It's not an actual career choice, despite how everybody going into law school seems to want to do it.

Wow, another TLSer talking out of the wrong orifice. I have a friend a Columbia who is there to study International Law, because every professor he talked to at every other school he applied to, told him that Columbia was his best choose for many reasons, primarily because of its proximity to the United Nations. As a URM that got into a top 30 school, with numbers so low on GPA and LSAT that "URM Boost" of a couple of point still had me below the 25th percentile, and having working with Adcoms from undergrad, and business schools, they are looking for a interesting person and an interesting story. If a person's numbers are somewhat competitive and they have life experience, versus really competitive and straight out of college, life experience wins out as long as the adcom believes the person can make it through the program. Coming up with the classic, book answer on a question, or regurgitating what you've heard on TLS isn't really creative thought, its cop out...

mhernton wrote: Wow, another TLSer talking out of the wrong orifice. I have a friend a Columbia who is there to study International Law, because every professor he talked to at every other school he applied to, told him that Columbia was his best choose for many reasons, primarily because of its proximity to the United Nations. As a URM that got into a top 30 school, with numbers so low on GPA and LSAT that "URM Boost" of a couple of point still had me below the 25th percentile, and having working with Adcoms from undergrad, and business schools, they are looking for a interesting person and an interesting story. If a person's numbers are somewhat competitive and they have life experience, versus really competitive and straight out of college, life experience wins out as long as the adcom believes the person can make it through the program. Coming up with the classic, book answer on a question, or regurgitating what you've heard on TLS isn't really creative thought, its cop out...

Trust me, I didn't get this from TLS. I got this from the invaluable Something Awful thread as well as data and using logic. Being interesting is a nice soft factor, yes, but like I said, unless you're extremely interesting, like a refugee or a Rhodes Scholar or something, you still need the right numbers to get in. And yes, being a classic URM gives you a significant boost that being a likable and interesting person does not.

Let me know if your Columbia friend gets a job in "international law." A few law students out of the entire country will get the few internships there are in international law, but there are simply very, very few jobs in this field that every other law student seems to want to do. Most people who practice "international law" are corporate lawyers who work with international matters. The people who represent Guatemala against the United States are generally veteran lawyers with many years of experience who either graduate with very good grades from HYS or insane grades from another T14, or have outstandingly distinguished themselves otherwise.

CoaltoNewCastle wrote:

mhernton wrote: Wow, another TLSer talking out of the wrong orifice. I have a friend a Columbia who is there to study International Law, because every professor he talked to at every other school he applied to, told him that Columbia was his best choose for many reasons, primarily because of its proximity to the United Nations. As a URM that got into a top 30 school, with numbers so low on GPA and LSAT that "URM Boost" of a couple of point still had me below the 25th percentile, and having working with Adcoms from undergrad, and business schools, they are looking for a interesting person and an interesting story. If a person's numbers are somewhat competitive and they have life experience, versus really competitive and straight out of college, life experience wins out as long as the adcom believes the person can make it through the program. Coming up with the classic, book answer on a question, or regurgitating what you've heard on TLS isn't really creative thought, its cop out...

Trust me, I didn't get this from TLS. I got this from the invaluable Something Awful thread as well as data and using logic. Being interesting is a nice soft factor, yes, but like I said, unless you're extremely interesting, like a refugee or a Rhodes Scholar or something, you still need the right numbers to get in. And yes, being a classic URM gives you a significant boost that being a likable and interesting person does not.

Let me know if your Columbia friend get a job in "international law." A few law students out of the entire country will get the few internships there are in international law, but there are simply very, very few jobs in this field that every other law student seems to want to do. Most people who practice "international law" are corporate lawyers who work with international matters. The people who represent Guatemala against the United States are generally veteran lawyers with many years of experience who either graduate with very good grades from HYS or insane grades from another T14, or have outstandingly distinguished themselves otherwise.

You missed my point coal -- I never said that there was no such thing as a URM boost. There is obviously. My point is that 2.2/155 doesn't get me into a top 30 school if I don't have a great application and interesting softs. That GPA/LSAT for a kid coming straight out of college, a middle class family and URM status gets rejected out right from any school in the top 30. The URM boost isn't some magical box you check to get you into the school of your choice as a URM, there needs to be substance behind it. So my point about the kurd is that if there is substance behind the declaration that they are kurdish, then it will carry more weight than an oh by the way I'm kurdish too.

BTW the URM check box isn't really a boost per say, you LSAT doesn't go from a 155 to a 165 just because you check a box. When screeners look at packages they have auto-admit numbers for LSAT and GPA, a maybe pile and an outright reject pile. That is how they deal with the 5000 to 7000 applications of 25 to 30 pages each. The URM boost, as its called, changes the bar on the maybe pile for URMs. The auto - admit people get a cursory package review to make sure there isn't any glaring red flags, the maybe pile is seriously reviewed, and the reject pile is reviewed as well, just not as thoroughly as the maybe pile. The board still reviews the files for URMs to make sure that the student has a chance to make it through the program. They do that by reviewing the person's background and looking at the quality of writing. Using your logic every URM in my category should get into the school I applied to if they have numbers better than mine. 2.2 GPA/ 155LSAT aren't all that hard to come by. Must be something else in my package. I've worked with admissions boards in Undergrad and in business school before, I've seen how the system works at other types of institutions

My buddy at Columbia had a job in the US District Court for his 1L summer. He's working for a firm this summer coming up and finishing his degree at the London School of Economics and getting an LLM to go with it, he's received indications that he will get a offer from the firm he's working at now.

No one cares

mhernton wrote:That is a lot more interesting that checking a box that says URM.

This continues to be the single dumbest thing I see on TLS, and no matter how many times I correct it, someone else pops up to say it and I have to correct them all over again.

THERE IS NO URM BOX.

Show me the box that "says URM" on a law school application. Go on, show me, I'll cough up $20 if you can.

People totally misrepresent how URM status works on these forums, and it's sad how people actually applaud the responses that end up being so wrong. Yes, it's very touching and unique to come from a war-torn background and make the rise from there to college graduate applying to American law schools. It also can make an enormous difference in applications; there are many law schools love to take at least a few people with poor numbers but truly interesting and well-written stories, including Berkeley which is T6.

However, OP didn't mention that he escaped prison or defected or has been living in political asylum. He just asked if being Kurdish would help, and the correct answer is: If you have an interesting story it can go in a Diversity Statement that can help, depending on how good of a story you have, but it's not likely to help as much as being one of the URM categories.

Law schools already can and do make special cases for truly unique stories. But that isn't what OP was asking about, he was asking if he is URM or not, and whether he should write about his background despite that. The correct answers are simply "no" and "yes" respectively. Going on anti-URM tangents doesn't help OP at all and just makes things more confusing.

mhernton wrote:

CoaltoNewCastle wrote:

mhernton wrote: Wow, another TLSer talking out of the wrong orifice. I have a friend a Columbia who is there to study International Law, because every professor he talked to at every other school he applied to, told him that Columbia was his best choose for many reasons, primarily because of its proximity to the United Nations. As a URM that got into a top 30 school, with numbers so low on GPA and LSAT that "URM Boost" of a couple of point still had me below the 25th percentile, and having working with Adcoms from undergrad, and business schools, they are looking for a interesting person and an interesting story. If a person's numbers are somewhat competitive and they have life experience, versus really competitive and straight out of college, life experience wins out as long as the adcom believes the person can make it through the program. Coming up with the classic, book answer on a question, or regurgitating what you've heard on TLS isn't really creative thought, its cop out...

Trust me, I didn't get this from TLS. I got this from the invaluable Something Awful thread as well as data and using logic. Being interesting is a nice soft factor, yes, but like I said, unless you're extremely interesting, like a refugee or a Rhodes Scholar or something, you still need the right numbers to get in. And yes, being a classic URM gives you a significant boost that being a likable and interesting person does not.

Let me know if your Columbia friend get a job in "international law." A few law students out of the entire country will get the few internships there are in international law, but there are simply very, very few jobs in this field that every other law student seems to want to do. Most people who practice "international law" are corporate lawyers who work with international matters. The people who represent Guatemala against the United States are generally veteran lawyers with many years of experience who either graduate with very good grades from HYS or insane grades from another T14, or have outstandingly distinguished themselves otherwise.

You missed my point coal -- I never said that there was no such thing as a URM boost. There is obviously. My point is that 2.2/155 doesn't get me into a top 30 school if I don't have a great application and interesting softs. That GPA/LSAT for a kid coming straight out of college, a middle class family and URM status gets rejected out right from any school in the top 30. The URM boost isn't some magical box you check to get you into the school of your choice as a URM, there needs to be substance behind it. So my point about the kurd is that if there is substance behind the declaration that they are kurdish, then it will carry more weight than an oh by the way I'm kurdish too.

BTW the URM check box isn't really a boost per say, you LSAT doesn't go from a 155 to a 165 just because you check a box. When screeners look at packages they have auto-admit numbers for LSAT and GPA, a maybe pile and an outright reject pile. That is how they deal with the 5000 to 7000 applications of 25 to 30 pages each. The URM boost, as its called, changes the bar on the maybe pile for URMs. The auto - admit people get a cursory package review to make sure there isn't any glaring red flags, the maybe pile is seriously reviewed, and the reject pile is reviewed as well, just not as thoroughly as the maybe pile. The board still reviews the files for URMs to make sure that the student has a chance to make it through the program. They do that by reviewing the person's background and looking at the quality of writing. Using your logic every URM in my category should get into the school I applied to if they have numbers better than mine. 2.2 GPA/ 155LSAT aren't all that hard to come by. Must be something else in my package. I've worked with admissions boards in Undergrad and in business school before, I've seen how the system works at other types of institutions

My buddy at Columbia had a job in the US District Court for his 1L summer. He's working for a firm this summer coming up and finishing his degree at the London School of Economics and getting an LLM to go with it, he's received indications that he will get a offer from the firm he's working at now.

Wait, I'm killing myself (so to speak) to get over a 170 because my 3.38 GPA looks so low...and you got in with a 2.2 and a 155?

What exactly was in your personal statement and whatever else...and how early in your cycle did you apply? And of course exactly what school are you in?

legalized wrote:

mhernton wrote:

CoaltoNewCastle wrote:

mhernton wrote: Wow, another TLSer talking out of the wrong orifice. I have a friend a Columbia who is there to study International Law, because every professor he talked to at every other school he applied to, told him that Columbia was his best choose for many reasons, primarily because of its proximity to the United Nations. As a URM that got into a top 30 school, with numbers so low on GPA and LSAT that "URM Boost" of a couple of point still had me below the 25th percentile, and having working with Adcoms from undergrad, and business schools, they are looking for a interesting person and an interesting story. If a person's numbers are somewhat competitive and they have life experience, versus really competitive and straight out of college, life experience wins out as long as the adcom believes the person can make it through the program. Coming up with the classic, book answer on a question, or regurgitating what you've heard on TLS isn't really creative thought, its cop out...

Trust me, I didn't get this from TLS. I got this from the invaluable Something Awful thread as well as data and using logic. Being interesting is a nice soft factor, yes, but like I said, unless you're extremely interesting, like a refugee or a Rhodes Scholar or something, you still need the right numbers to get in. And yes, being a classic URM gives you a significant boost that being a likable and interesting person does not.

Let me know if your Columbia friend get a job in "international law." A few law students out of the entire country will get the few internships there are in international law, but there are simply very, very few jobs in this field that every other law student seems to want to do. Most people who practice "international law" are corporate lawyers who work with international matters. The people who represent Guatemala against the United States are generally veteran lawyers with many years of experience who either graduate with very good grades from HYS or insane grades from another T14, or have outstandingly distinguished themselves otherwise.

You missed my point coal -- I never said that there was no such thing as a URM boost. There is obviously. My point is that 2.2/155 doesn't get me into a top 30 school if I don't have a great application and interesting softs. That GPA/LSAT for a kid coming straight out of college, a middle class family and URM status gets rejected out right from any school in the top 30. The URM boost isn't some magical box you check to get you into the school of your choice as a URM, there needs to be substance behind it. So my point about the kurd is that if there is substance behind the declaration that they are kurdish, then it will carry more weight than an oh by the way I'm kurdish too.

BTW the URM check box isn't really a boost per say, you LSAT doesn't go from a 155 to a 165 just because you check a box. When screeners look at packages they have auto-admit numbers for LSAT and GPA, a maybe pile and an outright reject pile. That is how they deal with the 5000 to 7000 applications of 25 to 30 pages each. The URM boost, as its called, changes the bar on the maybe pile for URMs. The auto - admit people get a cursory package review to make sure there isn't any glaring red flags, the maybe pile is seriously reviewed, and the reject pile is reviewed as well, just not as thoroughly as the maybe pile. The board still reviews the files for URMs to make sure that the student has a chance to make it through the program. They do that by reviewing the person's background and looking at the quality of writing. Using your logic every URM in my category should get into the school I applied to if they have numbers better than mine. 2.2 GPA/ 155LSAT aren't all that hard to come by. Must be something else in my package. I've worked with admissions boards in Undergrad and in business school before, I've seen how the system works at other types of institutions

My buddy at Columbia had a job in the US District Court for his 1L summer. He's working for a firm this summer coming up and finishing his degree at the London School of Economics and getting an LLM to go with it, he's received indications that he will get a offer from the firm he's working at now.

Wait, I'm killing myself (so to speak) to get over a 170 because my 3.38 GPA looks so low...and you got in with a 2.2 and a 155?

What exactly was in your personal statement and whatever else...and how early in your cycle did you apply? And of course exactly what school are you in?

I'm a super hero in my own mind...Personal statement talked about two personal experiences, one while I was in Iraq, where a young marine got screwed over and I was in a position to help but lacked the tools and education to do so, and a second where a good friend made a deal on a biotech startup with a lawyer and lost a significant amount of investment capital because he didn't have a lawyer involved in the deal. Also did a statement on pride, what are you proud of?? I sent a kid from my ship to the naval academy, he graduated last year, so I talked about his graduation and past and future. I am an African American male, non traditional (33 y/o) have a MBA, combat veteran, lived in Japan for 2 years, got called up in the reserves to deploy back the middle east where I did my apps, and took the LSAT. 15+ years of military and corporate work experience. My 2.2 UGPA is explained by multiple surgeries, and two close relatives having cancer while I was in school in addition to 4 other close relatives dying while I was at school.

Basically I have every soft imaginable and wrote two pretty good essays in addition to addendums on the LSAT and My GPA. I also applied in October, with my letters of rec getting to the schools in early November. Rejected from Cornell and Depaul, admitted and attending William and Mary which seems to really like military candidates. That is all a guess, you'll have to ask the admissions committee why I really got in. That is why I said to the OP that having an interesting story goes a long way....