Top Law Schools

A newer blog that will give me a chance to connect with some like-minded individuals, as well as to provide a small window into my top-law-schools.com for my family and friends at home. Thanks for browsing!

http://0lmusings.blogspot.com/

It's that time of the year again. Law school's own version of March Madness. Yes, the 2008 US News Law School Rankings have been released.

Among 0L's this time of year causes us to go into a frenzy, weighing our potential schools against each other in every possible manner:

Which schools have moved up or down the most this year?

Which schools are most Over or Under rated in 2008?

Which schools have the best 'reputation' scores (which is supposedly the one part of the ranking criteria where it is nearly impossible to game the system, as opposed to adding more parking spaces or having the cleanest restrooms)

Our older, wiser friends and acquaintances all tell us to keep a cool head with this abundence of semi-useful information. They remind us that, outside of the top 14 or so schools, rankings matter little in a practical sense, as things such as regional relevance, clinicals offered, and LRAP programs, to name a few, all become much more important in our decision processes. What's funny, and somewhat inexplicable, is just how much we all still care about the rankings. I work in a firm with students and graduates of all 4 of the region's law schools. It was a good case study to watch them all emailing and chatting back and forth about which one of their schools had moved up or down, and pontificating on the reasons for these latest moves. They showed me emails they received from the dean's of their schools, expressing their happiness with the new rankings if the school had gone up, or bemoaning the rankings process as unimportant if the school had gone down, (Nice work at playing the politics, local Deans).

In the end, I think we can agree that the Rankings are useful in some sense; at the very least, they are another item in our arsenal of tools we can use when deciding between various law schools. But certainly, the rankings should not be seen or used as an end all be all. If you feel yourself starting to put too much weight into the rankings ( you know, withdrawing from a school you loved the previous day simply because they dropped 7 spots), take a deep breathe, talk to friends and family, e-mail me, whatever. Just remember, it's still the same school and we should be using much more than the US News to make such important choices!

Today it is time to vent a bit. I hate seat deposits. I think they are a cruel way of forcing prospective students into making life-altering decisions when they may, in fact, not have all of the necessary information required to make those decisions (typically, the Universities are the ones at fault for that lack of information).

Case in point: I was accepted at school X way back in December. I completed my Fafsa soon after the first of the year. School X sent me notification that I would need to submit my tax returns, W-2's, etc, because I had been selected for financial aid verification. I did so soon after completing my taxes. Time goes by and I don't hear anything from the school. I contact school X and they tell me "we never received your verification, we will have to send you another one in the mail". By this time it's March. I complete the verification the same day that it is mailed to me and mail it back, paying for overnight shipping. A few weeks go by and I've heard nothing. The school has a deposit deadline of April 1. I write the school, asking them if I will receive my financial aid information before April 1. They say most likely I will not. I ask them if I can have an extension in order to learn what my financial aid will be. They say they do not offer extensions under any circumstance. So where does that leave me? I either have to decide to give School X 3 years of my life and many thousands of dollars without knowing my financial aid package and thus, how much I will be required to borrow, or I tell school X to forget it and withdraw. Not exactly the best of choices. However, there is no way that I can, in good faith, say I will attend a school without knowing how much I will even be paying to attend that school. So I withdrew.

Now, if this were an isolated incident, it wouldn't be that big of a problem. "You just had issues with the verification process. It was a one-person-in-this-cycle kind of occurrence." It's not an isolated incident however. I know of many friends and acquaintances who have not heard anything from financial aid offices even though deposits are due April 1 or April 15. Is this a calculated effort by schools to force students into making these decisions without the proper knowledge? I probably wouldn't go that far with it. But certainly the schools stand to lose nothing by this practice of having seat deposits due right around the time that people are still getting financial aid offers, waiting to hear back from schools, waiting to see if they get off of waitlists, etc, etc.

I will call out one school in order to give credit where credit is due. The Univ. of Wisconsin has a simple online response page where students can simply check a box saying 1. I will be attending there this fall, 2. I will not be attending there this fall, 3. I need more time to decide whether or not I will be attending there this fall. Beyond that, there is no seat deposit required. Seems like such a simple and novel idea right? Now, if only other schools could get with the program and adopt similar methods! It would certainly take a great deal of unnecessary stress and angst off the backs of law school applicants, who would then be allowed to choose a school based on its relative merits and not simply because it is March 30 and seat deposits are due on Tuesday.

A good number of schools have seat deposit deadlines of April 1st, so I'd just like to wish everyone the best of luck in making your decision. We all have a lot of factors that play into our decisions and I know that it can seem overwhelming a lot of the time. It helps to know that you're not the only one going through this. And remember, whatever you choose, you can make the best of the situation. This decision that we are all making is not an end, but a beginning of the next stage of our journeys!

Alright, enough Zen for the day. I'm 99.9% sure that I've made a decision on my choice of schools, which I'll write about tomorrow after I'm 100%. However, if anyone has any questions or concerns about the decisions they are facing, or simply want another set of ears to bounce ideas off of, send me an e-mail or drop me a comment to get in touch; Don't worry, I enjoy listening. Cheers.

My (almost) final decision on where to attend law school has come only after a long path of research, reflection, and personal visits. The above picture is of Portland, where I will attend Lewis & Clark Law School, pictured below:




If you had asked me one year ago where I thought I would be attending school this fall, I seriously doubt that L&C would have been in my top 5, yet alone number 1. That's not to say that I disliked the school; I simply didn't know much about it. I applied there because 1.) I love Portland, and 2.) I was interested in environmental law, (I saw was because who knows what I'll end up liking and pursuing in law school).

I was fairly sure that I wanted out of the Midwest, however. Don't get me wrong; the people are great, the summers are lovely, but it was the other 9 months of the year that got to me. I still applied to a few schools in the Midwest, just to cover my bases, but it was my hope that I could move elsewhere.

Long story short: my two choices came down to the Univ. of Wisc. (with MN reciprocity) and L&C (with a generous scholarship). Now, I'm no dummy. I've done a lot of research on schools, talked with alumni, professors, scoured all the various rankings and lsac info, etc etc. So I understood what a great, well-known, well-respected school that UW is. I decided to give it the benefit of the doubt and scheduled a tour of the building/campus.


This is a good snapshot of my visit:




Again, the school is excellent, well-regarded, etc. However, after visiting, I knew that I would not be happy there for 3 years. Now, I know I'll get some flak from readers, telling me to "suck it up" and that I "don't have to live in Madison forever" and that "you'll learn to love it". For some people, that is perfectly acceptable, and the chance to get out of Wisconsin if you place well enough in the class is enough of a safety net for people who don't like UW. That being said, I knew that, for me, being unhappy for 3 years in order to secure a "higher" paying job if I finish well in the class is not enough of a motivation to suck it up and stay in the Midwest

On the other side of things, I love Portland. I love the weather, the people, the city, the vibe, and the school. Sure, L&C is ranked 40+ spots lower than UW. Sure the L&C name isn't recognized all over the U.S. like the UW name might be. To me, that didn't matter.

I know I will be happy at L&C. I know that my job opportunities will be limited to the PNW. I know that having a shot at the top-paying BigLaw jobs that 0L's drool over will be much less than it would be at UW. And I'm fine with all of that.

For me, you can't put a price on happiness.

Read an interesting article in the ABA Journal today... Here

The article is about Bob Morse, who created the law school rankings for U.S. News, and what some professors are saying about the rankings. It's not exactly for or against the rankings, or Mr. Morse personally, but it's an interesting read nonetheless. My favorite passage:

"Any student or parent who uses the rankings as the No. 1 reason to go to a school, well, that’s exactly the wrong way to use them,” Morse says. “The rankings are a tool. They give deans and students useful statistics for comparisons. But there are a lot of factors that go into evaluating whether a school is the right fit.”

Morse says his own daughter graduated from New York University law school last year and was a member of the prestigious Order of the Coif honor society.

He says he does not want to speak for her, but he is certain she didn’t rely solely on the rankings when she made her choice. That she loved New York City and could find a fun, interesting job there while she was in law school were also key factors, he says."

Right. I'm sure the fact that she is the daughter of Bob Morse and got into NYU has nothing to do with the fact that she wouldn't 'solely rely on the rankings'. I'm sure it was that 'fun, interesting job' that she held while at NYU.....

Regardless, if the sole creator of the ranking system for U.S. News flat out admits that rankings should not be that important when choosing a school, how much credibility can we really put in them? Hopefully the day will come when schools don't have to focus such energy and resources on trying to game the system and can focus on the real task of actually educating the students. But I'm not holding my breath.


http://0lmusings.blogspot.com/

Sometimes, when all other factors are equal, the city that a school is located in becomes a major factor in our decisions.

A friend sent me this link to a map with some data that could be interesting if anyone else is having this dilemma: Here

That map got me thinking about what some other important factors might be when choosing which city you'd like to move to most. Here are a few more links with some good info to help you decide (or just to waste time at work, which is what I did with them):

Here and Here

Enjoy!

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I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, but thought I should post it for wider distribution...

"So this weekend, while driving to a certain city to visit a certain school in the Midwest, I was involved in an auto accident. Not my fault, it was icy, a big SUV thought they'd be cool and try to pass me doing 70 in the blizzard, etc etc. They side swiped me, dented my front end a bit and sent my front headlight flying into a snowbank somewhere. Everyone in my car was just fine, so no worries there.

So today, about 5 days later, I get home from work in my city that is about 8 hours away from the accident and what do I find in my mailbox?? 7 HUGE, stuffed envelopes from various Personal Injury firms in the city where the accident happened. You can imagine how cheesy some of the brochures and slogans were..."After an accident there is no 'good' time to talk to the victims. However, we here at xxxx law firm would like to take the liberty to speak to you" Blech. Quiero vomitar en mi boca. Some firms included cheesy magnets, calendars, etc. One firm decided to include a nail file with their firm's name on it! (Might want to speak to the marketing department about that genius ad idea...)

All in all, it has made me extra, extra motivated to work my ass off in LS, regardless of where I attend. I truly hope that none of us will end up as ambulance chasers like these firms (although, sadly, it's probably inevitable that some of us will). I'm sure some people are happy doing this kind of work, but I can't imagine anyone just jumping at the chance saying "I worked 3 years so in law school so I could follow my dreams of doing Personal Injury work!"

Just thought I'd vent and give anyone else who needs it an extra bit of motivation to do their best wherever we end up for these next 3 years!"

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A friend sent the following 2 lists to me today;

The 20 Most Beautiful Campuses Here

The 20 Ugliest Campuses Here

Both are interesting, but are representative of Undergrad campuses mainly. So I thought I'd take a random stab at googling images for the Most Beautiful and Ugliest Law school campuses. My lunch break is only a half hour though, so it will have to be a condensed version.

A Few Random Beautiful Law School Settings (in no particular order)

1. Pepperdine University



It's hard to compete with a law school nestled in the hills overlooking the beauty of the Pacific Ocean. Perfect weather, perfect views, though I guess it could be a fair trade-off from having to deal with Ken Starr all day.

2. Lewis & Clark



Yes, I'm biased. But come on, it's surrounded by a huge forest, what's not to love?

3. University of Wisconsin



...but only for the Library; the rest of the building could use some work.

4. Cornell University



Reminds me of simpler times, like sipping tea on the grounds of Oxford whilst discussing the latest cricket match. (Below: Oxford for comparison)




A Few Random Ugly Law School Settings


1. University of Chicago



Welcome to the State Penitentiary.

2. University of Minnesota



Don't let the outside fool you; Walk through those doors and it's akin to entering a medieval dungeon. Not exactly the most conducive environment for getting work done.

3. University of Iowa



Sorry Iowa, but I feel like this was designed for the 1904 World's Fair as a sort of futuristic vision of what architecture might be when we're all jetting about in our flying cars.

4. Yale University



Well done, Yale. If your goal was to intimidate the crap out of students with your architecture, consider it a success.

5. Duquesne Law



I'm sorry, but personally, I would not want to attend classes what looks to be a Soviet-era block of flats.





Hmmm, surely I'm missing a few good-looking law schools, but alas, my break is over and I must go back to working for the man. Send your comments for good or bad looking law schools and I'll update the list when I have time this weekend.

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Surely, we've all seen these stories by now.

The WSJ article on an upset Kirsten Wolf

The Chicago Tribune article

The Salary Disparities for Attorneys

The Frustrated Depaul Alum

Another WSJ article


Hard to find much in the way of direct responses to these articles, but there is somewhat of a counterpoint
Here

It's much easier to find articles advocating against going to law school.

Slate article
Tucker Max article
Another lengthy article



How much stock should we, as 0L's, put in these kinds of reports? It is hard to say. Certainly these articles bring up valid points about the necessities of doing plenty of research before jumping into a JD. They also note some of the "wrong" reasons to obtain a JD. There are, however, certain reasons for wanting to go to law school that are perfectly valid. If you have one of these reasons, have done ample amounts of research on the legal field and employment prospects, and have decided on a school that won't leave you with crushing debt, then these articles should not dissuade you from pursuing your goals. They certainly give me pause to re-solidify for myself why I am pursuing a JD, but in the end, I feel it is still a good decision for me. I hope many of you come to the same conclusion as well.


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Bad Omen

It's never a good sign when the American Bar Association, the omnipotent and omnipresent head of all things Legal, is telling JD's to prepare for a life outside of the legal world. Yet that is exactly what's happening.

Click Here for the ABA article


Can you imagine the American Medical Association telling MD students, "I know you've spent years of your lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars pursing your MD, but, guess what, you'd better get ready to look for a different kind of job upon graduation, because we don't need anymore doctors."

This article (somewhat) tries to put a positive spin on things by saying "It's hard for JD's to find employment because there are just SO many different venues that they can pursue."

Anyone buying that one?



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A Different Viewpoint




Read a good article titled "What Rankings Don't Say About Costly Choices" Here

The author makes some valid points about the logic in choosing a lower-ranked school with $$ vs. a higher-ranked school at full price. My favorite lines of the article: "For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options. "

Some interesting charts accompany the article as well. One is the top 100 schools as ranked by percentage of graduates who are at the top 250 firms.That One is Here

And the other breaks down employment outcomes of various schools by regions. This one in particular is very interesting and informative. Regional Employment Stats Here


Thoughts?




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So I'm sitting in a hotel room in Madison tonight. My parents think I'm crazy for leaning towards Lewis & Clark over Wisconsin, even though I have no desire to live in the Midwest. It's hard to explain all of the months of research I have done on these schools to friends and family and everything that I have researched about regional vs. rankings, etc.

However, my father offered to pay for the gas and hotel, so I figured, why not? At the very least I'll hang out with my friends in Madison for a couple of days for free

Taking a tour of the school tomorrow and the campus in general, and visiting with a few current students, so I'll report back if anyone is still considering Wisconsin.


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Scary Survey

51% of current students surveyed are going to graduate with over $100K in debt.....scary?


Link Here


Thoughts?


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Weekend in Madison: Review

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Alright, now that I finally have some time, I thought I should post about my weekend in Madison while it's still (somewhat) fresh in my mind. So, where to start. First off, the city itself. To me, the city has 2 distinct feels, depending on where you are. There is the Campus/Downtown feel, and then everywhere else. My hotel was out on the East side of town, about 5 miles from the campus. This is a part of Madison that I imagine I would try to avoid if I lived there. It's full of strip malls and box stores galore. From my hotel window I could see a Best Buy, Red Robin, TGIFridays (or Chilis, I can't really remember, but they are interchangeable anyways), Chipotle, Old Navy, ..well, you get the picture. Suffice it to say, it's nothing special out there.

The Campus/Downtown area, however, is significantly better. Imagine all types of independent coffeeshops and restaurants, bookstores, clothing stores, pubs, etc. They're all there, and within walking distance. The area around the Capitol is really beautiful (especially when I was there during the Farmer's Market on Saturday morning).

The Campus itself is a huge, sprawling beast. Thank god all the law classes would be in one building; I feel sorry for the undergrads who have to traverse across campus for different classes. The law building was in a good location; close to the Union, the lake, State Street, the Capitol, etc. However, the housing situation could be a problem, most noticeably in the winter. There didn't appear to be a lot of apartments that weren't swarming with undergrads. I've heard that law students tend to live a bit further away, but I can't imagine walking more than a mile during the dead of winter.

The law building is somewhat of a maze. It's almost like you're on the set of Being John Malkovich, with half floors here and hidden stairwells there. I took a tour with a student and if you asked me to lead you on that same tour, I'd be lost within a minute. I'm sure students get used to it quickly (or just show up late for class for the first week or two). The classrooms were nothing to write home about. Most looked pretty old, with chipped tables and utilitarian furnishings. It didn't seem exactly brimming with technological advances or anything either, although maybe that's somewhat of a minor point when learning the law. Overall, it seems as though some cans of paint and a few new chairs and tables would go a LONG way towards sprucing up the classrooms.

The library was pretty nice; seemed large enough and with a great view of Bascom Mall (which my guide told me was a blessing and a curse, depending on the weather. You either wanted to be out there enjoying it with everyone or laughing at the poor students stuck walking around out in the snow.)

Overall, I liked the city of Madison well enough (or at least the Campus/Downtown area). The people seemed friendly. There are a lot of cool, independent businesses around campus. There was a (relatively) good amount of diversity, although it's still Wisconsin, so if you leave the Campus area, that will become more clear. I went to an Indian student association event at a nice theatre downtown, had some good Thai food the next day, and went to a hip-hop show that night, so it's not as though there's NO culture going on; you just have to know where to look (or so I was told).

My main concern with the prospect of attending UW would be the portability of a UW degree. From talking to students, it seems as though its a fairly regional school (which we should already know). Top 5% or better have a chance of going to D.C. or NYC, but beyond that, it's a fairly long shot. Some students said that UW places well throughout the Midwest, be it Chicago or Minneapolis or Indianapolis, etc, however, they also said that these usually require a top 25% or so finish.

Personally, I'm 99% sure that I wouldn't want to live in Wisconsin after law school. I could maybe, maybe see myself in Madison for a few years after graduating, but I'm a big city kid and I'm not sure how long I would like it there. I also know that I don't want to live in Milwaukee, which is the other big city that UW places very well in. So I'm at the stage now where I'm wondering if it makes sense to attend UW on the 10-20% chance that I could finish well enough to work in Chicago or Minneapolis, or should I go somewhere that I know I want to live, regardless of my class standing. I certainly don't want to lose the UW gamble and be stuck doing personal injury law in Kenosha or somewhere (no offense to anyone from Kenosha!)


I'm heading out to Portland in 2 weeks, so I'll try to write a little review of that trip as well. Hopefully it will clear things up and allow me to (finally) finalize this decision!

P.S. I forgot to mention that Madison has an excellent selection of locally-brewed beer. If you're ever in the Upper-Midwest, give Spotted Cow a try!

2008 GW Law Revue - Real Men of Law School - Jobs Guy


Get ready to meet this guy....


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Top 100 Criminal and Civil Court Cases of 2007

Here

Top decision was worth over 1 Billion...Nice work if you can get it..


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Why Law School Costs So Much

Interesting article Here

Best quote: "Before we jump on the bandwagon for subsidies for the cost of law school, it would make sense to ask whether those costs are not artificially inflated to begin with.

They are. Thanks to connivance between state legislatures and the American Bar Association, law school costs much more than it needs to."

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Bad News for Summer Hires?




There have been quite a few articles lately about how firms are scaling back their summer opportunities. Any thoughts on how this might affect people starting school this fall? Will things be a bit more solid by our 2L summers, or will we be facing these same sorts of problems?


"Crash Diet for Law Firms: Less Dessert for Summer Associates

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Law School Musical

Link to Video

Well gang, it seems as though this is what's to come. Hope everyone enjoys their summers; this will soon be us singing this tune.

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Decision Time
Well, I ended up contacting about 20+ attorneys in Portland who are graduates of L&C and I asked them about their experiences with the school and job market afterwards and I specifically asked them to be as blunt as possible and not to sugarcoat anything. The general responses were:

1.) If you want a Biglaw job in Portland or Seattle, you should be around the top 5-10%, with law review, etc.
2.) If you want mid-law or gov't work in Portland, there really isn't a big market for either of those, so again, be in the top 5-15%
3.) If you are in the lower 65% of the class or have no law review, etc, be prepared to accept a job that you will probably not have any interest in doing, ie, personal injury, insurance defense, and things of those nature.
4.) If you are planning on doing environmental work; in DC or East Coast - be in the top 5%; in Portland - not really a market. They said the people who had designs on doing environmental work usually misunderstood the job prospects in that, a majority of environmental jobs are in rural areas, ie, Eastern OR, Western Idaho, etc. They said that, frankly, there aren't a lot of environmental legal jobs in portland or other big cities, and that those jobs usually go to the top 5% with credentials, or else to T14 students.
5.) The Career Services office is essentially useless, so don't look to them for a ton of help.

All that being said, most of them "overall" liked the school. They just told me to be very, very careful with employment expectations and outlooks after graduation. They said that many of them and their classmates have taken less-than-pleasing jobs in fields that they aren't that interested in, simply because the Portland market isn't that huge and many people want to be there. So overall, they said you can find a job, maybe just not the type, salary, location, that you want.

But also, Portland, as a city, rocks


As for me, I decided that it wasn't worth the risk. I will be going to Wisconsin. I talked to many alumni from Wisconsin as well, including about a dozen in Portland and Seattle (who said lots of PNW firms recruit Wisconsin grads), and they were generally much more satisfied with their career opportunities out of Wisconsin. They were able to a.) take advantage of diploma privilege and stay in Wisconsin, b.) if in the top 5-10%, head out to the East Coast, c.) if in the top 50%, head to Chicago or West Coast. So overall, for me, it makes more sense to go this route. And who knows, maybe I'll end up out in the PNW after all is said and done.



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2008 Statistics on Hiring in Academia



Interesting article on the Concurring Opinions blog
Here on school's placement rates in Academia. This first one focuses on schools ranked 30 or lower by US News. The rankings for the top 30 schools are Here It seems that some schools in the lower half place better than some schools in the top 30, although there is probably a myriad of reasons for this. Thoughts on these articles?


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Apartment hunting is a pain. It's bad enough when you already live in the city that you are hunting in. It becomes exponentially more of a pain when your new residence is hundreds of miles away. Add to that the fact that it is a University town, where the vast majority of places have already been rented to current students, and you get a recipe for a disaster.

I was in Madison this weekend looking for an apartment. It did not go well. I had scoured the Internet for listings, cross-checked those listings with current students to check on the area, etc, scheduled showings, and everything else I could possibly do. All of this was for naught. The apartments were overpriced, dilapidated, and generally just a waste of money. While there were many newer, nice-looking apartments, the rents on these were exorbitant! Now, I suppose it's back to the drawing board.

If anyone in Madison has any good leads, please email me! I will be going back in a week or two, hopefully this trip will be much more productive.


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P.S.

Does anyone have web design or photoshop skills and want to do some pro-bono work? I need a new header for my blog and I have zero editing skills. If anyone's interested, please pm me, I'm sure we can work out some sort of arrangement...Thanks!

Quick Update


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Sorry for the complete lack of updates in the past month or so! Things have been extremely out of control emotionally, psychologically, etc. I suppose it is a good precursor for what's in store for me in the next three years....

I plan on getting back into the swing of things very soon, as things are starting move along now. Signed my lease on a nice place in Madison (finally) after making 3 weekend trips in a row hunting for a place. Gave notice to my employer that I'll be leaving in early August...and with that, things are becoming much more "real". As soon as I fill out my loan forms and sign away my life on the dotted promissory line, it'll be officially official.


As far as this website, I'm in DIRE need of some help. Anyone with a bit of spare time and a big heart, now is the time to showcase your skills! I'm looking for a new header for the page and logo to spread throughout my other online stomping grounds. If ANYone is interested, please leave a comment or email; I'm sure we can set up some sort of payment options for your hard work! Thanks in advance for any help I might receive.