BYU's rep amongst non-Mormons Forum

[erico]

If you're targeting Southern California then I'd say go big (T14/UCLA/USC) go good regional (USD maybe Loyola) or go good cheap (BYU). You'll have to find stats for yourself, but I'm fairly sure that BYU places a good share more kids in SoCal than do the two midwest schools you listed.

So in your opinion schools like GWU, BU, BC shouldn't get too much consideration (from me, in this context)? What is your opinion of Hastings? I should probably add Loyola to my list, it's expensive though. Thnx!

[Lord Jim-ish]

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[Lord Jim-ish]

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[wardboro]

As far as GW, BU, and BC are concerned, in California they are viewed as (maybe) a half-step up from BYU depending on who you ask. Those will give you better access to the East Coast, for sure. It's really a money game at that point. With your numbers (GPA a little low--mine was too) I don't know if any of those would throw significant money at you. If you have a 1/4 tuition scholarship you're sitting at about 30k a year in tuition plus DC/Boston CoL. Best case scenario you leave with around 150k of debt. Provo, you could easily live on 10k a year plus 10k tuition a year and you could leave with around 60k of debt. BYU won't throw any money your way, and tuition will likely increase modestly, but that's likely to happen anywhere you go.

Hastings/Davis is probably viewed as on-par or above BYU, but have you seen the new in-state tuition prices?!? It's gonna be 40k in-state--don't even mention 50k out of state. As such, I think that Loyola is probably cheaper. As far as Loyola/Pepperdine are concerned, you should talk to some locals about those schools and their placement. USD might throw money at you to get that LSAT score, and so that's something to consider for sure.

My bottom line, and I've told this to a few kids is:
1. Even if we have a robust recovery, we don't know what biglaw compensation/hiring is going to look like in 4-5 years.
2. You probably don't have T14 numbers, and as such, it's a risk to pay sticker price anywhere.
3. BYU is super cheap and gives you a shot at Biglaw and the California market. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to settle for less either money-wise or geographically. None of the schools you listed will give you a huge advantage over the Y, but likely they will cost significantly more. If you can get through three years in Provo (it has an In-and-Out now) then I think you should at least strongly consider it. If nothing works out, at least you'll have a very manageable pile of debt.

Most hiring people aren't going to ding you based on your religious affiliation. If they do, it's not a place you wanted to work anyway.

[erico]

As far as GW, BU, and BC are concerned, in California they are viewed as (maybe) a half-step up from BYU depending on who you ask. Those will give you better access to the East Coast, for sure. It's really a money game at that point. With your numbers (GPA a little low--mine was too) I don't know if any of those would throw significant money at you. If you have a 1/4 tuition scholarship you're sitting at about 30k a year in tuition plus DC/Boston CoL. Best case scenario you leave with around 150k of debt. Provo, you could easily live on 10k a year plus 10k tuition a year and you could leave with around 60k of debt. BYU won't throw any money your way, and tuition will likely increase modestly, but that's likely to happen anywhere you go.

Hastings/Davis is probably viewed as on-par or above BYU, but have you seen the new in-state tuition prices?!? It's gonna be 40k in-state--don't even mention 50k out of state. As such, I think that Loyola is probably cheaper. As far as Loyola/Pepperdine are concerned, you should talk to some locals about those schools and their placement. USD might throw money at you to get that LSAT score, and so that's something to consider for sure.

My bottom line, and I've told this to a few kids is:
1. Even if we have a robust recovery, we don't know what biglaw compensation/hiring is going to look like in 4-5 years.
2. You probably don't have T14 numbers, and as such, it's a risk to pay sticker price anywhere.
3. BYU is super cheap and gives you a shot at Biglaw and the California market. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to settle for less either money-wise or geographically. None of the schools you listed will give you a huge advantage over the Y, but likely they will cost significantly more. If you can get through three years in Provo (it has an In-and-Out now) then I think you should at least strongly consider it. If nothing works out, at least you'll have a very manageable pile of debt.

Most hiring people aren't going to ding you based on your religious affiliation. If they do, it's not a place you wanted to work anyway.

Cool. Yeah I'm not too worried about getting through 3 years in Provo. I think it will be fun as I didn't do my UG there so it'll be new.

Your advice pretty much mirrors that of an attorney friend of mine. He's Mormon but didn't go to BYU. From the minimal amount of research I've done so far it looks like for me the best options are BYU or a southern cal school with $$ (unless it's UCLA/SC).

[CE2JD]

Does not equal, is not the same as. My point was that one could be the sweetest Mormon on Earth but, if I knew that person was a Mormon, I'd (initially?) fixate on everything that has to do with Mormonism (Joseph Smith, South Park's "dum dum dum dum dum" episode, leading the way on Prop 8, Chet from the Real World Brooklyn, etc).

So while Sundevil77 may be cool, I'd still wonder if he wants to hurl every time he sees a rainbow flag. Seeing BYU on a resume would likely bring the same thoughts to my mind. Of course, this obviously doesn't mean that you wouldn't get hired anywhere if you chose to shave your face everyday before class and refrain from alcohol/stimulants. (BTW how the fuck would one get through law school without alcohol and/or coffee!?)

I love how stereotypes are encouraged wrt religious denominations. Way to go political correctness.

[Lord Jim-ish]

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[erico]

Does not equal, is not the same as. My point was that one could be the sweetest Mormon on Earth but, if I knew that person was a Mormon, I'd (initially?) fixate on everything that has to do with Mormonism (Joseph Smith, South Park's "dum dum dum dum dum" episode, leading the way on Prop 8, Chet from the Real World Brooklyn, etc).

So while Sundevil77 may be cool, I'd still wonder if he wants to hurl every time he sees a rainbow flag. Seeing BYU on a resume would likely bring the same thoughts to my mind. Of course, this obviously doesn't mean that you wouldn't get hired anywhere if you chose to shave your face everyday before class and refrain from alcohol/stimulants. (BTW how the fuck would one get through law school without alcohol and/or coffee!?)

I love how stereotypes are encouraged wrt religious denominations. Way to go political correctness.

I don't think "Mormons dislike gays" is unfair.

Prop 8:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members are commonly known as Mormons, also publicly supported the proposition. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter intended to be read in every congregation in California. In this letter, church members were encouraged to "do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time." Local LDS leaders set organizational and monetary goals for their membership—sometimes quite specific—to fulfill this call. The response of the LDS membership to their leadership's appeals to donate money and volunteer time was very supportive, such that Latter-day Saints provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state. ProtectMarriage, the official proponents of Proposition 8, estimate that about half the donations they received came from LDS sources, and that "eighty to ninety percent" of the early volunteers going door-to-door were LDS. The LDS Church produced and broadcast to its congregations a program describing the opposition to the Proposition, and describing the timeline it proposes for what it describes as grassroots efforts to oppose the Proposition."

From '97 (clearly dated but not entirely irrelevant):
"Brigham Young University students who surveyed campus attitudes towards homosexuals say 42 percent of the students questioned believe same-sex oriented students should not be allowed in school, even if they obey its honor code, which prohibits homosexual behavior. School policy allows same-sex oriented people who follow its guidelines of behavior. "BYU has a general policy that any student who has a current ecclesiastical endorsement, good academic standing and is abiding by the honor code can attend the university," said Janet Scharman, dean of students. "The Church (of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) sets policy for us."

To be clear, I wasn't necessarily claiming that all Mormons disapprove of homosexuality. However, the aforementioned points plus the fact that shock-treatment may have been used at BYU to "treat" homosexuality in the past seems to be a bit much.

Basically, I'm opposed to discrimination masquerading as piety. Call me crass.

Stay on topic. I don't want this thread going in this direction.

[Lord Jim-ish]

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[erico]

Sorry, just replying to CE2JD's post. I won't post anymore.

I wish you the best in whatever you do.

Thanks. You can post all you like. I welcome advice that will help me weigh the decision of where to attend law school.

[nahgems]

Stay on topic. I don't want this thread going in this direction.

I think the problem is that most people don't think about BYU as a separate topic from Mormonism. Keeping the discussion "on topic" (focused on perceptions of BYU) without discussing perceptions / stereotypes about Mormonism isn't realistic. When I think BYU, the first thing I think is Mormon. When I think Mormon I think (off topic discussion: of the craziness I learned Hill Cumoroh Pagent, the support for Prop 8, the extreme conservative values, tithing)

[CE2JD]

I don't think "Mormons dislike gays" is unfair.

Prop 8:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members are commonly known as Mormons, also publicly supported the proposition. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter intended to be read in every congregation in California. In this letter, church members were encouraged to "do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time." Local LDS leaders set organizational and monetary goals for their membership—sometimes quite specific—to fulfill this call. The response of the LDS membership to their leadership's appeals to donate money and volunteer time was very supportive, such that Latter-day Saints provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state. ProtectMarriage, the official proponents of Proposition 8, estimate that about half the donations they received came from LDS sources, and that "eighty to ninety percent" of the early volunteers going door-to-door were LDS. The LDS Church produced and broadcast to its congregations a program describing the opposition to the Proposition, and describing the timeline it proposes for what it describes as grassroots efforts to oppose the Proposition."

From '97 (clearly dated but not entirely irrelevant):
"Brigham Young University students who surveyed campus attitudes towards homosexuals say 42 percent of the students questioned believe same-sex oriented students should not be allowed in school, even if they obey its honor code, which prohibits homosexual behavior. School policy allows same-sex oriented people who follow its guidelines of behavior. "BYU has a general policy that any student who has a current ecclesiastical endorsement, good academic standing and is abiding by the honor code can attend the university," said Janet Scharman, dean of students. "The Church (of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) sets policy for us."

To be clear, I wasn't necessarily claiming that all Mormons disapprove of homosexuality. However, the aforementioned points plus the fact that shock-treatment may have been used at BYU to "treat" homosexuality in the past seems to be a bit much.

Basically, I'm opposed to discrimination masquerading as piety. Call me crass.

The Mormon Church supports substantive gay rights:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2009/Nove ... -Backing-/

Also, many Mormons support eliminating civil marriage altogether and allowing only civil unions to bestow the same civil rights on both gays and straights. In my experience, most Mormons just want to protect their own definition of marriage, not take away any substantive "rights" from gays (if you can even refer to the usage of a word to refer to one's own relationship as a "right").

[erico]

Stay on topic. I don't want this thread going in this direction.

I think the problem is that most people don't think about BYU as a separate topic from Mormonism. Keeping the discussion "on topic" (focused on perceptions of BYU) without discussing perceptions / stereotypes about Mormonism isn't realistic. When I think BYU, the first thing I think is Mormon. When I think Mormon I think (off topic discussion: of the craziness I learned Hill Cumoroh Pagent, the support for Prop 8, the extreme conservative values, tithing)

That's fine and I agree with you that Mormon stereotypes are part of BYU and certainly the coupling of those stereotypes with the school is somewhat of interest and is on topic. I just don't want to get into an argument or discussion over the substance of those stereotypes. In my mind that's off topic (and so is the previous post).

[CE2JD]

That said, BYU law school is an absolute gunner-fest and I wouldn't go there if they paid me to.

The competition is insane and you shouldn't let anyone convince you otherwise (I have several immediate family members who went there and many many friends who went there as well).

[puppleberry finn]

Flip flops are legal. Beards are still out right now, but I think there is a growing consensus that the policy will change soon. It's an anachronistic policy implemented by the most conservative President BYU had (Wilkinson) against the counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s.

You actually aren't allowed to have a beard if you go to BYU? That's not some sort of joke?

[violaboy]

Flip flops are legal. Beards are still out right now, but I think there is a growing consensus that the policy will change soon. It's an anachronistic policy implemented by the most conservative President BYU had (Wilkinson) against the counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s.

You actually aren't allowed to have a beard if you go to BYU? That's not some sort of joke?

No joke.

[sundevil77]

Flip flops are legal. Beards are still out right now, but I think there is a growing consensus that the policy will change soon. It's an anachronistic policy implemented by the most conservative President BYU had (Wilkinson) against the counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s.

You actually aren't allowed to have a beard if you go to BYU? That's not some sort of joke?

No joke. They want students to maintain a clean appearance. Although I don't sport a beard, it's one thing that turns me off to BYU. However, if you think about it, it's not that bad. What percentage of professionals actually have a beard? The answer has to be somewhere close to zero. I guess you can look at it as preparing to enter the professional world.

Stay on topic. I don't want this thread going in this direction.

I think the problem is that most people don't think about BYU as a separate topic from Mormonism. Keeping the discussion "on topic" (focused on perceptions of BYU) without discussing perceptions / stereotypes about Mormonism isn't realistic. When I think BYU, the first thing I think is Mormon. When I think Mormon I think (off topic discussion: of the craziness I learned Hill Cumoroh Pagent, the support for Prop 8, the extreme conservative values, tithing)

OP, I don't think Mormonism has too much relevance to a law degree from BYU. Some people on this board are not able to disassociate BYU's religious foundations from the actual education received there. Someone with a degree from BYU receives an equal or better education than most. As long as you have your J.D. from BYU and have passed the bar in your respective state, I don't think anybody's going to care about your religious beliefs. Like someone already mentioned, if a hiring committee actually discriminates against you because of where you got your degree, it's not somewhere you want to work. From what I've seen living in AZ, BYU lawyers have a decent amount of success because of the network of other LDS lawyers in the market. If you want to work in SoCal, I think you could easily tap into networks of fellow BYU alums. There are plenty of members in SoCal.

[erico]

Flip flops are legal. Beards are still out right now, but I think there is a growing consensus that the policy will change soon. It's an anachronistic policy implemented by the most conservative President BYU had (Wilkinson) against the counterculture of the late 60s and early 70s.

You actually aren't allowed to have a beard if you go to BYU? That's not some sort of joke?

No joke. They want students to maintain a clean appearance. Although I don't sport a beard, it's one thing that turns me off to BYU. However, if you think about it, it's not that bad. What percentage of professionals actually have a beard? The answer has to be somewhere close to zero. I guess you can look at it as preparing to enter the professional world.

Stay on topic. I don't want this thread going in this direction.

I think the problem is that most people don't think about BYU as a separate topic from Mormonism. Keeping the discussion "on topic" (focused on perceptions of BYU) without discussing perceptions / stereotypes about Mormonism isn't realistic. When I think BYU, the first thing I think is Mormon. When I think Mormon I think (off topic discussion: of the craziness I learned Hill Cumoroh Pagent, the support for Prop 8, the extreme conservative values, tithing)

OP, I don't think Mormonism has too much relevance to a law degree from BYU. Some people on this board are not able to disassociate BYU's religious foundations from the actual education received there. Someone with a degree from BYU receives an equal or better education than most. As long as you have your J.D. from BYU and have passed the bar in your respective state, I don't think anybody's going to care about your religious beliefs. Like someone already mentioned, if a hiring committee actually discriminates against you because of where you got your degree, it's not somewhere you want to work. From what I've seen living in AZ, BYU lawyers have a decent amount of success because of the network of other LDS lawyers in the market. If you want to work in SoCal, I think you could easily tap into networks of fellow BYU alums. There are plenty of members in SoCal.

My other take on it is that I will probably obtain my first job through someone I know anyways so it's not really going to matter.

[Cupidity]

This forum has gotten far to serious and productive in its old age, back to what I think is the main point.

BYU is a training center for culturally isolated homophobes, and when I am a partner at a law firm some day, I will blacklist the school and refuse to hire any of its grads, and every other homosexual in the country will probably be doing the same thing.

[Jones, Dow]

This forum has gotten far to serious and productive in its old age, back to what I think is the main point.

BYU is a training center for culturally isolated homophobes, and when I am a partner at a law firm some day, I will blacklist the school and refuse to hire any of its grads, and every other homosexual in the country will probably be doing the same thing.

the only partner you'll ever be is a civil partner.

[erico]

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[RudeDudewithAttitude]

I think Colbert

That's my property professor! Great teacher. Very laid back. I love him.

[Lord Jim-ish]

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[nealric]

No joke. They want students to maintain a clean appearance. Although I don't sport a beard, it's one thing that turns me off to BYU. However, if you think about it, it's not that bad. What percentage of professionals actually have a beard? The answer has to be somewhere close to zero. I guess you can look at it as preparing to enter the professional world.

I would say at least 1/3 of male students here sport at least a few days stubble most of the time. I'm going to be shaving every day for pretty much the rest of my life post-graduation, it would be seriously annoying to have to start now.

[Scrutinizer]

You actually aren't allowed to have a beard if you go to BYU? That's not some sort of joke?

Initially it may seem difficult to wrap your head around the thought process behind this particular regulation. But you just have to ask yourself What Would Jesus Do? Its pretty clear that Jesus would have shaved every morning before heading out to heal the lepers and/or teach people new fishing skills.