Opera goes to Penn Station in search of Rankings! Forum

[linquest]

I had no idea who Ken was until Jugg's posting.

Was I missing out this whole time when I should've been worshipping him?

Damn

[pennstatepride]

Why does anyone even care?? It's not like many people on here or any other site know much anyway...I mean all this 'advice' is MOSTLY coming from current law students, who for the most part have not a clue about the 'real world'. And I do not know why someone cannot be given good advice about going to a tier 3 school; this is why the legal professional is looked down upon. I'll tell you now, that you DO NOT see med-school students praising rankings and/or telling people that if you don't go to a 'top school' your career is worthless. I think any constructive advice is great, no matter what school one is contemplating.

[Mr. Matlock]

dantim - i'm sorry you stopped reading at "dood" but it wasn't til the last paragraph, so thank you for at least reading up until then

veritas and doyle - i understand what you're saying, and of course all else equal i'd prefer the discourse to be civil, but i think you're missing my point. when you say "ken is giving good advice, he just doesn't need to be rude about it" you're missing the main point - his advice is actually very very bad. he's contributing to a situation where tens of thousands of law students every year are attending these schools and putting themselves 150K or more in debt with very bad job prospects. i don't care how nice he seems while he's doing it, he's giving you bad advice.

to explain in a way that might be more clear, my preferences would be 1) good advice given in a friendly manner, 2) good advice given rudely (XO), 3) horrible, life-ruining advice given in a friendly manner (TLS), 4) horrible, life ruining advice given in a rude manner

and for what it's worth, i faithfully espouse the doctrines of the kindness club, a group of XOers who are generally very friendly to each other and others on the board. and i agree XO would be better without all the disgusting racist crap, etc. the only time i take a break from being friendly on XO is to attack people like rudolph, a poster who yesterday accused anyone he didn't agree with of being asian, which i found highly offensive because he was implying there was something wrong with being asian. on a side note, it seems like a lot of TLS posters read XO so you may be familiar with the poster rudolph - do you guys agree he is the worst poster to ever post on XO?

I've never seen anyone ever on TLS ever suggest going 150k in debt at anything but T1. Where are you getting these facts?

He just insists on quoting from the gospels of JDU and XO. We're all a bunch of lemmings running off a cliff. That's all they think and don't bother to read the site.

And really, I've only read XO when they made the news for trashing those Yale girls and then some other degenerate with horrific rape fantasies. Real top notch lawyer stuff. They should be proud.

So I tried being nice, mixed with a healthy dose of sarcasm , but that didn't work. So now I'll just ask that he goes back to that fuckton of a hole he calls an internet home and keeps his uneducated, moronic, assumption filled, opinions to himself and his gang of miscreant gargoyles.

[gilchristh]

.

[hoffb86]

I'm getting this thread on track now by trying to pass a few motions.

Motion one: no one pays any attention to this troll

Motion two: OS should be a mod.

Any seconds?

I second both.

word.

+2 (i'd nominate geo for mod status as well for masterful use of the blackberry messenger and supreme assistance of OS)

[SWISHER JUGGERNAUT]

my apologies for not using the quote feature, i don't really like it....

to all those who said i don't know enough about TLS to make an informed judgment, you are absolutely correct - my opinion is mostly based on posts that have been copied and pasted onto XO to mock you guys, reading this thread, and looking through some of Ken's posts. just a question, what is Ken's role? does he own the site? or is he just a helpful poster? i admit maybe i was a little harsh on him - maybe his motives are good, i just disagree 100% with the advice he gives. in my opinion, it is almost always a bad idea to go to a lot of the school people discuss going to on this site - so when i see so many posters in this thread looking for the tier 2-4 rankings last night, it just made me cringe. i know i come across as a jerk here, but i promise my only goal posting here is to get you guys to take a step back and think about the potentially devastating decision you're about to make.

matlock - fine, TLS certainly wins the battle of who got the rankings first, if that battle existed. i swear to you, i really really don't care about which site got credit. i like to post on XO, but i promise this doesn't matter to me at all that opera singer posts here and not on xo. to opera singer, that was pretty cool of you to go out and do what you did, and you've helped foster a lot of discussion in the last 24 hours or so. i don't know why other posters on this site seems to think they somehow win something because you did that....but either way, awesome job. i appreciate it. and Ken, classy move covering her expenses (i'm not being sarcastic here).

those who talk about how lots of T14 posters post here, i know that - and i know some of you post on both sites. my point wasn't to mock you guys for being and argue that XO posters are prestigious T14ers. i came here cause i saw lots of posters in this thread and TLS posters coming to XO to brag about TLS, and i just think you're misguided about XO and misguided about TLS.

and by the way, compared to most XO posters who come here, i think i'm being fairly respectful, and i appreciate you guys are mostly doing the same. and for those saying i'm making assumptions about TLS based on limited information, you're right, but i hope you guys recognize you're doing the same thing about XO.

and my apologies for messing with you guys last night with the penn station thing - but you have to admit i made it a little more exciting.

[observationalist]

I also don't think that many people even read or pay much attention to the school profiles...

Vanderbilt's TLS profile was actually the catalyst for career services publishing full employer/city lists last year for the first time, a move that's helped transform the school into one of the most transparent legal institutions in the country. You can now see where every graduate went for the last two years, in addition to where all the 2Ls summered last year and (coming soon) where my class is summering beginning next month. No other school is providing that level of openness, though we're hoping more will recognize the value of getting that info out to prospective students.

However, the reason the TLS profile sparked al that was that it was factually incorrect, on multiple accounts. It put Vandy on the defensive... prospectives called the school's attention to it and school responded accordingly. I would assume there are factual errors with a number of the profiles, aside from many of them just being outdated. They COULD be a great resource if more effort was put into them... right now they look too much like the blurbs you find on Vault's rankings.

Edit: Troll? What Troll? Let's talk about these TLS profiles.

[Mr. Matlock]

dantim - i'm sorry you stopped reading at "dood" but it wasn't til the last paragraph, so thank you for at least reading up until then

veritas and doyle - i understand what you're saying, and of course all else equal i'd prefer the discourse to be civil, but i think you're missing my point. when you say "ken is giving good advice, he just doesn't need to be rude about it" you're missing the main point - his advice is actually very very bad. he's contributing to a situation where tens of thousands of law students every year are attending these schools and putting themselves 150K or more in debt with very bad job prospects. i don't care how nice he seems while he's doing it, he's giving you bad advice.

to explain in a way that might be more clear, my preferences would be 1) good advice given in a friendly manner, 2) good advice given rudely (XO), 3) horrible, life-ruining advice given in a friendly manner (TLS), 4) horrible, life ruining advice given in a rude manner

and for what it's worth, i faithfully espouse the doctrines of the kindness club, a group of XOers who are generally very friendly to each other and others on the board. and i agree XO would be better without all the disgusting racist crap, etc. the only time i take a break from being friendly on XO is to attack people like rudolph, a poster who yesterday accused anyone he didn't agree with of being asian, which i found highly offensive because he was implying there was something wrong with being asian. on a side note, it seems like a lot of TLS posters read XO so you may be familiar with the poster rudolph - do you guys agree he is the worst poster to ever post on XO?

I think people on this site are typically very realistic with their advice and blunt about it, without being rude. If you and other members of XO give good advice, I'm sure TLS would be better off if you could come over to this site to give your perspective and advice, as long as its cordial and friendly. Thats all we ask for at TLS. But I think you are wrong in suggesting people giving a lot of faulty advice.

Edit: I also think the most frequent advice I hear given on TLS is to retake the LSAT if at all possible. That is not painting a rosy picture of law school and the job market, IMO

There are plenty of people on TLS who are rude about their advice also.

But you are a moron for basing your whole opinion of Ken and TLS on one thread which was full of silly anticipation at ridiculous hours of the morning. If we were to come over to your thread and start bashing it because of one thread wouldn't that seem stupid and immature?

+100

[dantimreynolds]

I'm getting this thread on track now by trying to pass a few motions.

Motion one: no one pays any attention to this troll

Motion two: OS should be a mod.

Any seconds?

I second both.

word.

+2 (i'd nominate geo for mod status as well for masterful use of the blackberry messenger and supreme assistance of OS)

OK. We have enough 2nds. Hopefully a mod sees this soon and takes note and passes it along. If a mod doesn't respond I'll just report my own (this) post so they have to!

[Veritas]

I didn't even know about XO until this stuff came up.

[jacktripper]

Enough with the freaking snottiness! Seriously, grow up... EVERYONE! Juggernaut's claims were unjustly speculative and pretty far off-base, yes... but do you really think you're winning people over by calling him a moron?

Oh sweet irony.

[SWISHER JUGGERNAUT]

relax with the mercer thing. someone on XO posted ken's post about how his mercer profile might have hurt the school's ranking - i only brought it up because it was the first post i saw by him, and i found it to be outrageous on a few levels.

[SWISHER JUGGERNAUT]

guys, i'll leave if you don't want me to post here. you don't have to report me to your mods. i'm really not here to fight with you guys. i hate the schools that take advantage of 0Ls, i don't hate you guys.

[jcwilsn1]

I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and I will end up graduating with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.

[3yearsnoprob]

Go Minnesota! Top 20...here we go.

[Mr. Matlock]

my apologies for not using the quote feature, i don't really like it....

to all those who said i don't know enough about TLS to make an informed judgment, you are absolutely correct - my opinion is mostly based on posts that have been copied and pasted onto XO to mock you guys, reading this thread, and looking through some of Ken's posts. just a question, what is Ken's role? does he own the site? or is he just a helpful poster? i admit maybe i was a little harsh on him - maybe his motives are good, i just disagree 100% with the advice he gives. in my opinion, it is almost always a bad idea to go to a lot of the school people discuss going to on this site - so when i see so many posters in this thread looking for the tier 2-4 rankings last night, it just made me cringe. i know i come across as a jerk here, but i promise my only goal posting here is to get you guys to take a step back and think about the potentially devastating decision you're about to make.

matlock - fine, TLS certainly wins the battle of who got the rankings first, if that battle existed. i swear to you, i really really don't care about which site got credit. i like to post on XO, but i promise this doesn't matter to me at all that opera singer posts here and not on xo. to opera singer, that was pretty cool of you to go out and do what you did, and you've helped foster a lot of discussion in the last 24 hours or so. i don't know why other posters on this site seems to think they somehow win something because you did that....but either way, awesome job. i appreciate it. and Ken, classy move covering her expenses (i'm not being sarcastic here).

those who talk about how lots of T14 posters post here, i know that - and i know some of you post on both sites. my point wasn't to mock you guys for being and argue that XO posters are prestigious T14ers. i came here cause i saw lots of posters in this thread and TLS posters coming to XO to brag about TLS, and i just think you're misguided about XO and misguided about TLS.

and by the way, compared to most XO posters who come here, i think i'm being fairly respectful, and i appreciate you guys are mostly doing the same. i see this divide between our two sites, and i wonder if together, we can't one day coexist peacefully. and for those saying i'm making assumptions about TLS based on limited information, you're right, but i hope you guys recognize you're doing the same thing about XO.

and my apologies for messing with you guys last night with the penn station thing - but you have to admit i made it a little more exciting.

BUT... ah shit. OK, agree to disagree. It does take some large "jewels" to post like you are, and I believe you're sincere. I do still believe you don't have a full grasp on what it is TLS does and offers, but that's up to you if you want to stick around and find out. Truly, all this amounts to is us having a little fun today. Between all the economic hell posting and law bashing, it's fun to have a little internetz drama to take the edge off. Most of us are VERY aware of what faces us. Good times!

That is all.

[doyleoil]

i hate the schools that take advantage of 0Ls, i don't hate you guys.

yes, this makes sense - and no, you don't have to leave - just realize that this entire site can't be cast as a bunch of naive people trying to wall themselves off from reality - you need to spend more time here to realize that (and if you're looking for the cynics, you need to hang out in the lounge for a few minutes...)

[TheNerdProject]

TLSers are cool (most, at least; there are some genuine assholes on here), though I'm not 100% sure what the culture is like at LSD or XO since I rarely go there. The few times I've gone the MAJORITY of the threads have been filled with snarky/childish/cheap-attempts-at-comedy kind of comments, which i guess were written by barely-passing high school class clown rejects begging for attention and wishing they could get a JD.

That being said, what attracted me the most about TLS was its interface, which is a thousand times better than at XO and LSD. It's not perfect, but i totally dig the pictures (the logo, avatars, user-posted images/comments); overall organization; general attractiveness of the site; ease of navigation; unique yet simple way of quoting others; emoticons; the fact that Ken asks us for advice and even employs some TLSers in further-developing the site, and more. Simply put, TLS is a better product, and THIS is why it's way more successful than the other sites.

I've visited XO and LSD in the past and I've always been dumbfounded by how difficult, unattractive, and poorly-developed those sites are. I'm always left with the question "Why would anyone want to be a member of such crappy sites, let alone visit them on a daily basis?"

TLS is a better product. Period. (hence why it's so damn addictive!)

[jacktripper]

Conflict resolved...

broken_image

[SWISHER JUGGERNAUT]

I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and will graduate with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.

congrats. no one can really argue with that decision. i don't think you'll ever see me arguing that no one should ever consider going to any school outside the T14.

[mallard]

I'm going to a solid T2 that dominates the local legal market and will graduate with less than 50k. please help me swisher, save me from my own intellectually poor self.

I think this may be the sort of comment the juggernaut is getting at.

It doesn't necessarily matter which schools dominate your local legal market. Visualize this as a Venn diagram. If your local legal market has, say, ten job openings a year (obviously this is hypothetical), those could all go to graduates of your school. Your school would thus "dominate" the market more completely than any actual school dominates any actual market, I'm pretty sure. However, if your school graduates fifty JDs a year, there's still eighty percent of the class to worry about.

[PhantaManta]

Yes, TLS probably does have a more optimistic picture of law school than xoxo or jdu, but only if we are talking about the intentionally absurd (or at least I hope intentionally absurd) decelerations by people on those sites about schools below, lets say, 30.

TLS isn't unrealistically optimistic and it isn't needlessly inflammatory or pessimistic. If someone posts about their options with a 150, people tell them to retake. If people post with a 160, they can find out that they don't have that large a chance at big law.

The consensus is that people can still be relatively successful and happy at T2s if they keep cost down, would be happy to work outside of biglaw, and are not expecting to become immediately rich. It might even be hard.

It's hard for us to think xoxo and jdu guys are serious when they don't care enough to give rational advice and instead prefer to screw around, insult people, cause trouble, be racist. I mean, I guess it's funny, but it doesn't seem serious.

[sf87]

Yes, TLS probably does have a more optimistic picture of law school than xoxo or jdu, but only if we are talking about the intentionally absurd (or at least I hope intentionally absurd) decelerations by people on those sites about schools below, lets say, 30.

TLS isn't unrealistically optimistic and it isn't needlessly inflammatory or pessimistic. If someone posts about their options with a 150, people tell them to retake. If people post with a 160, they can find out that they don't have that large a chance at big law.

The consensus is that people can still be relatively successful and happy at T2s if they keep cost down, would be happy to work outside of biglaw, and are not expecting to become immediately rich. It might even be hard.

It's hard for us to think xoxo and jdu guys are serious when they don't care enough to give rational advice and instead prefer to screw around, insult people, cause trouble, be racist. I mean, I guess it's funny, but it doesn't seem serious.

+1
I've gotten a lot of great advice on here, and it definitely wasn't unrealistically optimistic

[SWISHER JUGGERNAUT]

i don't feel like searching through the posts to find it, but someone in the last couple pages said TLS gets more visitors to the site than XO. is that true? just curious. i've never been to JDU, and LSD seems like it hardly gets any posts anymore.

[MrOrange]

I think this may be the sort of comment the juggernaut is getting at.

It doesn't necessarily matter which schools dominate your local legal market. Visualize this as a Venn diagram. If your local legal market has, say, ten job openings a year (obviously this is hypothetical), those could all go to graduates of your school. Your school would thus "dominate" the market more completely than any actual school dominates any actual market, I'm pretty sure. However, if your school graduates fifty JDs a year, there's still eighty percent of the class to worry about.

I do think TLSers tend to view many, many things in the simplest terms possible...based on how some of them post/write. But honestly, I doubt that there are a tremendous number of people here who think about taking on absurd amounts of debt at ANY school and say to themselves..."hey, this is a great, virtually risk-free investment".

The problem that I have with most (especially JDU) trolls is that they belabor the obvious and make simplistic assertions about complex decisions to degrees that are even more extreme than typical TLS comments.

All that being said, and without having read the last 4+ pages, JUGGERNAUT doesn't strike me as trollish.