Hamilton at Columbia vs. Yale/Harvard Forum

[bernaldiaz]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Sorry I wasn't clear what I was saying. My point was that they would have turned down at least ONE of those options. I don't think that's too unfair to say, no?

[ahnhub]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

[abacus]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Where do you get the matriculation rate information? I'm curious about how HLS and SLS numbers compare.

[drylo]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Yeah, most probably do get into Harvard and/or Stanford. I was more talking about the Rubenstein and Hamilton.

[bernaldiaz]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Where do you get the matriculation rate information? I'm curious about how HLS and SLS numbers compare.

I googled it for Yale haha. Let me see if I can find Harvard and Stanford.

ETA Harvard is 559 out of 842 (66%)

[ahnhub]

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Where do you get the matriculation rate information? I'm curious about how HLS and SLS numbers compare.[/quote]

US News reports it, but you need an account.
For c/o 2012 HLS accepted 833 and 561 chose to attend (67% yield).
Stanford 180/379 (47%)
Yale 205/255 (80%)

Y and H have heavy overlap--I'd say 95% of admits are cross-admitted to both schools. SLS has considerable overlap with both, but still admits quite a few people who don't get into either H or Y. From what I've seen I think the general preference is Y-H-S.

[bernaldiaz]

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Where do you get the matriculation rate information? I'm curious about how HLS and SLS numbers compare.

US News reports it, but you need an account.
For c/o 2012 HLS accepted 833 and 561 chose to attend (67% yield).
Stanford 180/379 (47%)
Yale 205/255 (80%)

Y and H have heavy overlap--I'd say 95% of admits are cross-admitted to both schools. SLS has considerable overlap with both, but still admits quite a few people who don't get into either H or Y. From what I've seen I think the general preference is Y-H-S.[/quote]

Nice thanks for tracking that down. It's amazing how fast those matriculation rates drop off.

[abacus]

Mm, is he that far off? I mean "every single one" may be an exaggeration but on LSN I think I've only seen one or two Yale admits that didn't also get into Harvard or Stanford.

Where do you get the matriculation rate information? I'm curious about how HLS and SLS numbers compare.

US News reports it, but you need an account.
For c/o 2012 HLS accepted 833 and 561 chose to attend (67% yield).
Stanford 180/379 (47%)
Yale 205/255 (80%)

Y and H have heavy overlap--I'd say 95% of admits are cross-admitted to both schools. SLS has considerable overlap with both, but still admits quite a few people who don't get into either H or Y. From what I've seen I think the general preference is Y-H-S.[/quote]

Forgive me for hijacking this thread for a second, but why is SLS's matriculation rate so low? Especially since-- as ahnhub mentioned-- it is the most likely of the three to admit impressive students that don't happen to have high LSATs (and who therefore would have SLS as their obvious best-choice school since they would likely be autorejects at Columbia or NYU and would likely not qualify for scholarships at schools that use $$$ to boost medians, etc.). I've just always sensed a bit of a SLS>HLS vibe at this website and am a bit surprised to see those numbers...

[Guchster]

I actually spoke to one of my professors at CLS about this after my input in the other Hamilton thread, and her opinion was that when it comes to applying for jobs at schools like CLS, the Hamilton name is HUGE clout that really differentiates that candidate from other people, when the faculty is reviewing applicants for associate professorship positions (or when judges&clerks pull up 5000 resumes to sift through). She also said that the mentorship opportunity actually forces Hamilton fellows to start making faculty connections really early on and that relationship makes it easier to vouch for that person come clerkship/academia time. She said CLS+ Hamilton ~ YLS, in terms of competitiveness for clerkships/academia, at least when she reviewed faculty applicants. She said top grades and being published, wherever you go is more important.

Lastly, she said that Hamilton fellows are generally paired with really the better known faculty members, and while interactions differ, apparently just having them in your arena during the clerkship application process is really helpful.


Her opinion was that CLS is larger than YLS, but that the money combined with the recommendation/mentorship and the uniqueness/prestige it adds to a persons post-grad application is major.

Apparently, most Hamiltons at CLS clerk afterwards, with a few that jump into academia afterwards (according to the ones she's mentored)

[ahnhub]

For c/o 2012 HLS accepted 833 and 561 chose to attend (67% yield). Stanford 180/379 (47%). Yale 205/255 (80%)

Y and H have heavy overlap--I'd say 95% of admits are cross-admitted to both schools. SLS has considerable overlap with both, but still admits quite a few people who don't get into either H or Y. From what I've seen I think the general preference is Y-H-S.

Forgive me for hijacking this thread for a second, but why is SLS's matriculation rate so low? Especially since-- as ahnhub mentioned-- it is the most likely of the three to admit impressive students that don't happen to have high LSATs (and who therefore would have SLS as their obvious best-choice school since they would likely be autorejects at Columbia or NYU and would likely not qualify for scholarships at schools that use $$$ to boost medians, etc.). I've just always sensed a bit of a SLS>HLS vibe at this website and am a bit surprised to see those numbers...

So pretty much all of the lower-number people who get into S matriculate, I think. But Stanford still admits a lot of super-high number people, too, and those people often choose Harvard (and on very rare occasions another T-14). It's pretty much prestige, I think. Harvard Law School is the default for elite-ness. It's the H-bomb. Every lawyer in the movies went to Harvard. East-coast bias may also be at work.

I think there are also plenty of legitimate reasons to pick Harvard over Stanford, even though the relative scarcity of the Stanford degree may make it ultimately more bullet-proof when you're looking for that first job. A huge alumni network, a different approach to legal education (Stanford seems to pride itself on stressing the practical, rather than the intellectual, and some people may just have a legitimately greater interest in the theoretical aspects of law), possibly an advantage in academia.

[ahnhub]

I actually spoke to one of my professors at CLS about this after my input in the other Hamilton thread, and her opinion was that when it comes to applying for jobs at schools like CLS, the Hamilton name is HUGE clout that really differentiates that candidate from other people, when the faculty is reviewing applicants for associate professorship positions (or when judges&clerks pull up 5000 resumes to sift through). She also said that the mentorship opportunity actually forces Hamilton fellows to start making faculty connections really early on and that relationship makes it easier to vouch for that person come clerkship/academia time. She said CLS+ Hamilton ~ YLS, in terms of competitiveness for clerkships/academia, at least when she reviewed faculty applicants. She said top grades and being published, wherever you go is more important.

Lastly, she said that Hamilton fellows are generally paired with really the better known faculty members, and while interactions differ, apparently just having them in your arena during the clerkship application process is really helpful.


Her opinion was that CLS is larger than YLS, but that the money combined with the recommendation/mentorship and the uniqueness/prestige it adds to a persons post-grad application is major.

Apparently, most Hamiltons at CLS clerk afterwards, with a few that jump into academia afterwards (according to the ones she's mentored)

But awesome grades are pretty much a requirement for either clerking or academia, and a Hamilton can't guarantee you that, can it?

[bernaldiaz]

I actually spoke to one of my professors at CLS about this after my input in the other Hamilton thread, and her opinion was that when it comes to applying for jobs at schools like CLS, the Hamilton name is HUGE clout that really differentiates that candidate from other people, when the faculty is reviewing applicants for associate professorship positions (or when judges&clerks pull up 5000 resumes to sift through). She also said that the mentorship opportunity actually forces Hamilton fellows to start making faculty connections really early on and that relationship makes it easier to vouch for that person come clerkship/academia time. She said CLS+ Hamilton ~ YLS, in terms of competitiveness for clerkships/academia, at least when she reviewed faculty applicants. She said top grades and being published, wherever you go is more important.

Lastly, she said that Hamilton fellows are generally paired with really the better known faculty members, and while interactions differ, apparently just having them in your arena during the clerkship application process is really helpful.


Her opinion was that CLS is larger than YLS, but that the money combined with the recommendation/mentorship and the uniqueness/prestige it adds to a persons post-grad application is major.

Apparently, most Hamiltons at CLS clerk afterwards, with a few that jump into academia afterwards (according to the ones she's mentored)

Also, while the Hamilton may be important for clerkship and academia, I think most people care how it affects biglaw hiring (at least that's where this little Yale v. the world argument sprung up). I thought in another thread someone who was offered a Hamilton and reached out to several past Hamiltons was told that they didn't think having the fellowship made much of a difference in hiring.

[Guchster]

I actually spoke to one of my professors at CLS about this after my input in the other Hamilton thread, and her opinion was that when it comes to applying for jobs at schools like CLS, the Hamilton name is HUGE clout that really differentiates that candidate from other people, when the faculty is reviewing applicants for associate professorship positions (or when judges&clerks pull up 5000 resumes to sift through). She also said that the mentorship opportunity actually forces Hamilton fellows to start making faculty connections really early on and that relationship makes it easier to vouch for that person come clerkship/academia time. She said CLS+ Hamilton ~ YLS, in terms of competitiveness for clerkships/academia, at least when she reviewed faculty applicants. She said top grades and being published, wherever you go is more important.

Lastly, she said that Hamilton fellows are generally paired with really the better known faculty members, and while interactions differ, apparently just having them in your arena during the clerkship application process is really helpful.


Her opinion was that CLS is larger than YLS, but that the money combined with the recommendation/mentorship and the uniqueness/prestige it adds to a persons post-grad application is major.

Apparently, most Hamiltons at CLS clerk afterwards, with a few that jump into academia afterwards (according to the ones she's mentored)

But awesome grades are pretty much a requirement for either clerking or academia, and a Hamilton can't guarantee you that, can it?

Listen, if you read the other thread, you'll see i'm definitely not on board the CLS train moast of the time. I actually went to this professor to prove my point that the Hamilton sucked balls, and opened up the convo. by saying that I had a friend deciding between the two and this ^^^ was what she said. Instead, I got fisted with this info.

I don't know how much of what she said was true, but she's a very well liked professor at CLS and I, along with my classmates, deeply respect her judgment and sometimes brutal honesty. While she never said this directly, the vibe I got was that Hams generally end up at the top of our class. While there is no guarantee that this will happen, anecdotally she made it sound like it just does.

But if your grades suck balls at CLS, chances are you're law school exam taking skillz aren't going to do you many favors at YLS. I guess if you end up middle of the pack at both schools, YLS would help you more in the clerkship/academia arena (although middle-bottom of the class, even at YLS, doesn't sound like law schools/judges will be jumping to hire you when they can just take the top of your class or a Ham, etc).

Also, in terms of BigLaw, I can 100% say that having "Hamilton Fellow" on your resume, would DEFINITELY give you a boost. I'm not sure who said that or from which Ham fellows they claim to have heard it from, but logically it just makes sense that it would be a nice boost. Not only do you have no debt to worry about (so you an quit an do something else if you'd like), but it's a hell of a conversation starter, which is generally what runs EIP/OCI. It sticks out like a sore thumb in interviews, and it definitely will set you apart--which is the really hard thing to do at EIP when everyone is basically the same with similar grades/softs as you. Firms would love to add Hamilton Fellow to their website. Then again, if your grade suck, that will be sad.

But if they suck at YLS, chances are you won't be that impressive either, but probably moar impressive than the CLS median pwn3d kid. Meh. Just passing it along that while CLS is not as impressive/presitigious as Yale, the Hamilton is.

[soj]

Regarding HYS's yield:

Y accepts around 250 each year.
H accepts around 850 each year.
S accepts around 380 each year.

One reason H has such high yield is that at least 220 (and if I had to guess, probably more like 320, since some applicants sweep HYS) H admits didn't get into Y or S. Of HYS, only H has the luxury of having so many of its admits not get into its peer schools. That inflates H's yield--that's why overall yield is not a great indicator of the desirability of a school relative to peer schools, especially when one school admits so many more applicants than its peers do.

In contrast, a much bigger percentage of S admits also got into Y or H.

So if the HS cross-admits (assuming Y isn't in play) split up 50-50 between H and S, that would hurt S's yield much more than H's yield, even though in this case H and S are equally desirable.

By the way, if the cross-admits with extremely high stats disproportionately chose YH over S, that might help explain why S's medians are lower.

[ExpectLess]

.

[anstone1988]

I think Yale's matriculation rate speaks for itself. Over 81% of their admits chose to go to the school. I'm sure every single one of them could have chosen Harvard or Stanford or a Ruby or a Hamilton, and they still chose Yale. Honestly, unless there are super specific goals that a person has which would push them towards Stanford or one of the other options, Yale just seems almost impossible to turn down.

That probably says as much about the mentality of law school applicants as it does Yale's awesomeness. I don't doubt Yale is awesome--it's so frickin' hard to get into, and everyone knows that, so the degree really does carry its own special pedigree. But depending on your goals I don't think the answer is always to go with the more prestigious school. If I wanted NYC Biglaw I would take the Hamilton over any of HYS.

Dude from what I've read from Yale student interviews, ANYONE can roll out of bed and get NYC biglaw from Yale. Literally anyone. Even with the Hamilton, if you're bottom 25% there's a chance you wouldn't get biglaw.

That's what students at H/S say about H/S as well. If you look at the raw employment data, a greater percentage of students at Harvard (88.9%) who secured law firm jobs secured them at firms with 251+ lawyers compared to students at Yale (82.4%).

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... index.html
http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

[tinman]

3L at YLS here. Want to share some thoughts about being at the bottom of the class at Yale. It's pretty impossible to do. As long as you are good at something. You can graduate Yale taking zero finals classes for a grade. Zero! So if you think you will be bad at exams, you can avoid them like the plague. You can even take some blackletter law classes and write a paper, depending on the professor. I have heard of people writing papers for antitrust, property, bankruptcy, and fed courts. And you can fill your schedule with clinic work too. It's really hard to not do well here. Even at H and S if you suck at law school exams, it will definitely show and hurt your chances at all kinds of jobs.

Lots of other ways to distinguish yourself here too: you can walk on to any journal except YLJ and even that is easy (they even let 3Ls join this year for writing a Note).

And if you are good at exams, you can kill at YLS. I personally have very little idea how to get to maybe, and a lot of my classmates have no idea there is a book about it.

Anyway, I have mixed feelings about whether going to law school was a good idea for me, but I am glad I didn't take the Hamilton or anything else.

[jd5]

3L at YLS here. Want to share some thoughts about being at the bottom of the class at Yale. It's pretty impossible to do. As long as you are good at something. You can graduate Yale taking zero finals classes for a grade. Zero! So if you think you will be bad at exams, you can avoid them like the plague. You can even take some blackletter law classes and write a paper, depending on the professor. I have heard of people writing papers for antitrust, property, bankruptcy, and fed courts. And you can fill your schedule with clinic work too. It's really hard to not do well here. Even at H and S if you suck at law school exams, it will definitely show and hurt your chances at all kinds of jobs.

Won't it show up on your transcript if you avoid classes with exams?

And if you are good at exams, you can kill at YLS. I personally have very little idea how to get to maybe, and a lot of my classmates have no idea there is a book about it.

But if you're good at exams, you'll be good at them at CLS and kill it there also. And I'm skeptical that prestigious employment opportunities differ significantly between a YLS grad with good/great grades and a CLS Hamilton Fellow towards the top of his/her class. Isn't the biggest advantage of Yale just insurance against the poor job prospects afforded those at the bottom of their class at CLS? And how likely is it, really, that a Hamilton Fellow will end up at the bottom of the class?

I'm pretty solidly on the fence between a Hamilton and YLS (with $20k-ish financial aid for 1L), so thoughts and/or pushback are welcome.

[jd5]

Some added background: I've spoken with an attorney at DOJ who does Honors hiring, and he has said that even for YLS applicants, they want to see a good number of Hs on the transcript, and in relevant classes. So my question is this: if you're good enough at law school to do well at Yale, wouldn't you likely have been good enough to perform as well or better at CLS?

Conventional wisdom on TLS seems to be that taking a Hamilton/Rubenstein is for the more risk-averse -- the risk avoided being, of course, debt -- whereas turning down a Hamilton/Rubenstein is for those more interested in higher-end opportunities that are easier to get from HYS. But I'm starting to wonder whether the relationship might actually be reversed. If you turn down a Hamilton/Rubenstein for HYS, you're insuring yourself against the possibility of finishing towards the bottom of your class (at Chicago or Columbia) and ending up with poor job prospects. For higher-end opportunities, I think it's likely that anyone who does well at HYS would have done at least as well at CLS, and I'm not convinced that a Hamilton Fellow towards the top of his/her class at CLS doesn't have roughly the same job prospects -- even for academia, clerkships, government positions, and prestigious firm jobs -- as someone who did well at HYS.

[EdgarWinter]

.

[tinman]

Won't it show up on your transcript if you avoid classes with exams?
***
But if you're good at exams, you'll be good at them at CLS and kill it there also. And I'm skeptical that prestigious employment opportunities differ significantly between a YLS grad with good/great grades and a CLS Hamilton Fellow towards the top of his/her class. Isn't the biggest advantage of Yale just insurance against the poor job prospects afforded those at the bottom of their class at CLS? And how likely is it, really, that a Hamilton Fellow will end up at the bottom of the class?

I'm pretty solidly on the fence between a Hamilton and YLS (with $20k-ish financial aid for 1L), so thoughts and/or pushback are welcome.

No, the transcript does not say whether it is a paper or finals class. If you write a paper for property, antitrust and other serious sounding classes, people will generally assume you took a final for them. For classes that appear on your transcript as "Law and X", where X is something unrelated to law, I imagine people will assume that you wrote a paper for it.

Regarding killing it at YLS vs. killing it at CLS, I think it is much easier killing it at YLS and being at the "top" of the class. People here don't read Getting to Maybe. They don't worry about finals classes. Personally, I spent most of my time writing paper that I hope to publish someday, to the detriment of my finals. Also, I prioritize clinic over finals. This is not uncommon. Someone who focuses their energy on Blackletter classes here could do really great since so few people do that. I'm flattered that you think that someone like me (who was offered the Hamilton, got into HYS) would do well at CLS. But I'm not sure that's the case. I got into HYS because I did well on a silly few hour exam (LSAT) and had done some cool things with my life. I'm not sure I would have done well at CLS and I'm glad I will never have that tested.

If you come into Yale with a clear goal, you can achieve. My goal was to get a good firm job while keeping open the door for academia. I've done that. Other people want to work for government or do fancy clerkships, etc. If that's your goal, it's definitely something that can be accomplished.

[tinman]

Lol if one doesn't even know if one should have gone to law school then idk how one could be happy to have thrown away a chance to have that law school for virtually free. "I realize that this endeavor may have been a waste of my time, but I sure am glad that I spent $200,000 on it."

^The risk of not actually liking law school is one risk that I'd say a Hamilton insures against. It allows you to have less regrets about it if you end up not liking law.

I think this is false. Yale's repayment program is amazing. At least it was for my cohort, I think it's become a little less amazing. But I think the 100k I'm in debt from Yale is in some meaningful way less onerous that the 40k I would have been in debt on the Hamilton (Cost of living for three years minus 2L SA).

If I work a non-law job that pays 60k a year, I don't have to pay any of my loans. The same would not have been true for the 40k of loans from Columbia.

[minnesotamike]

Has anyone pulled the trigger? D-day is approaching.

[Twit]

Has anyone pulled the trigger? D-day is approaching.

Nope. OP, here's the deal: Do you want to start out $150k or more ahead AND will do you plan on the firm route for at least 3-4 years? If you do, go to CLS.

If you say:

• It's just money.
• LIPP/COAP will cover me if I'm working a low paying job.
• At a firm job paying off $150k, I still have a ridiculously comfortably salary (about $7000 a month--double what I make now).

Any of the above mentalities tell you to go to YHS.

The only thing to watch you for (double check this) is that Stanford's LRAP is good, but it does not cover low-paying private sector jobs; Harvard and Yale do. Likewise, H and S require you to be working in the legal field; Y does not. You could go to Y, become a fire juggler, and get COAP--so long as you're employed by someone.

Scholarships give CLS and UChic the advantage over YHS when the student is going into private practice that is not covered by LRAP--that way he or she can pocket they money rather than use it to pay loans. Finally, don't listen to this BS that misconstrues YHS as the better financial choice for private practice; statistically, YHS do not offer better paying returns than CCN.

If money is your sole concern AND you're doing Big Law, go with CLS.

[imchuckbass58]

LIPP/COAP will cover me if I'm working a low paying job.

Just on this point, if this is your reason, make sure you are committed to PI (or whatever low-paying job) for the long-haul. Pretty much every repayment program requires you to be in a low-paying job for somewhere between 8-10 consecutive years before they'll fully forgive your loans (it's not straight line forgiveness either, so if you do PI for 2 years on a 10 year full-repayment schedule, you won't get 20% of your debt forgiven - more like 10-15%).

There are obviously people who really are dedicated to PI, and god bless them. But there are also people who think PI sounds like something they might want to do but decide at some point (either in law school or after 2-3 years of practice) that they need to make more money. If this is possible, taking into account everything that might change over 10 years (family, buying a house, etc.), the force for the LIPP/COAP argument is much weaker.