New US News Rankings 2023-2024 Forum

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Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:24 pm

throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
I don’t doubt they can get jobs at a market paying firm, but I do doubt that the PI jobs are unique to Yale students.

That being said, I think PI jobs and the people who self select into them are undervalued in rankings systems, and most law school deans agree with me.

We, the members of the profession, need to free ourselves from the shackles of the LSAT and us news and world reports. Top Law schools need to have the freedom to choose people based on a broad variety of metrics that indicate a strong future career, regardless of GPA and LSAT. The schools also need to be freed from the stupid selectively metric which encourages schools to waste time and resources soliciting and reviewing apps from non-target students.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428111
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:24 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
I don’t doubt they can get jobs at a market paying firm, but I do doubt that the PI jobs are unique to Yale students.

That being said, I think PI jobs and the people who self select into them are undervalued in rankings systems, and most law school deans agree with me.

We, the members of the profession, need to free ourselves from the shackles of the LSAT and us news and world reports. Top Law schools need to have the freedom to choose people based on a broad variety of metrics that indicate a strong future career, regardless of GPA and LSAT. The schools also need to be freed from the stupid selectively metric which encourages schools to waste time and resources soliciting and reviewing apps from non-target students.
That's the spirit, comrade

Anonymous User
Posts: 428111
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm

throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?

Anonymous User
Posts: 428111
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428111
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Apr 23, 2023 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:32 pm

What are the worst circuits to clerk on?

Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:02 pm
dyemond wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:42 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:30 pm
dyemond wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:21 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:16 pm
15% of the class in school funded jobs is a bit insane imo but what type of PI fellowships are these? If they are legit unicorns that are impossible to get outside of Yale (or SLS maybe, or top 5% at a T14), then that's still impressive. But if it's garden variety PI then even if it's self selection it's kinda lame.
It's Yale. I don't know the exact breakdown, but quite a few of them are the legit unicorn type deals students from other schools would kill to have. But Yale heavily skews PI/fellowship anyway, it's a disappointment for most students there to go there and end up at like Cravath. Everyone at Yale envisions themselves, rightly or wrongly, in the most elite positions. IMO it makes for a toxic environment.
Ngl school-funded PI sounds like BS for employment stats.

Unicorn PI is “unicorn” because it’s selective and pays. An internship that school pays for is not particularly desirable.

At my school, unicorn PI was paid positions with ACLU, commutation/exoneration outfits, DOJ, etc. One guy I know snagged something with NATO.
It allows more students to do those types of gigs. For example, the ACLU has 4 funded spots total, but they are more than happy to accept 8 students. They go to Yale and get Yale to fund their extra students. And no one can tell the difference later. Another reason is because EJW and Skadden don't want to only give their fellowships out to Yale students.
That may be true but the point of the full time employment metric is to gauge the placement power of the school. YLS, with eye-watering GPA/LSAT medians and insanely strong alumni profile, can stand on its reputation as a finishing school for the elite.

Giving full credit to these positions can mask weakness in placement—in the wake of the recession, large numbers of school-funded positions were just synonyms for unemployed grads.

I get YLS’s complaint but they’re in a unique position compared to the rest of the field and for a school that’s so immersed in the academia ecosystem, it’s sure weird that they’re blind to their own privilege in throwing this specific tantrum.
If a significant amount of those PI placements are only because it's school funded, does this hold? Also do these jobs lead to academia? I get that's it's still super prestigious but if they continue to slip behind on clerkships it's hard to see how academia doesn't follow.
Clerkships aren't a prereq for academia. There's historically been a correlation but publications, advanced degrees, and VAPs are much more significant. If a school-funded position gave someone the opportunity to turn out publications, it'd arguably be more helpful for academia than a clerkship (obviously some clerks publish as well, but not all clerkships lend themselves to doing so).

And having worked at a PI org for a year is always going to make someone a better candidate for the full-time job than someone who hasn't worked at the PI org.

Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428111
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally

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Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:59 pm

Good question for that poster. If these jobs are so special and amazing, then list them out and let us be convinced.
Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.

Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:44 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm


Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Why don't other schools have this? A lot of the top schools could easily set aside 1m a year to send 20 kids to these positions. Y/S must seriously have different people. At my CCN I know a lot of people clerking a year or two after graduation and very few of them would have any interest in these types of jobs for a year pre-clerkship.

Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm


No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Why don't other schools have this? A lot of the top schools could easily set aside 1m a year to send 20 kids to these positions. Y/S must seriously have different people. At my CCN I know a lot of people clerking a year or two after graduation and very few of them would have any interest in these types of jobs for a year pre-clerkship.
I do think Y/S (and to a lesser extent Chi) think of themselves as fundamentally different from HCN, and manage themselves accordingly. I knew lots of people who had very unique background and were open about having merely okay (at least as far as SLS was concerned) stats. S, at least, is trying to have its alums be all over the place rather than trying to dominate biglaw--and from what I understand, Y is much the same if not more so. That puts more of an impetus towards these unique outcomes, and therefore the school supports them more. Columbia and NYU in particular just don't seem to care as much (outside of RTK etc).

Anonymous User
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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:20 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm

I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Why don't other schools have this? A lot of the top schools could easily set aside 1m a year to send 20 kids to these positions. Y/S must seriously have different people. At my CCN I know a lot of people clerking a year or two after graduation and very few of them would have any interest in these types of jobs for a year pre-clerkship.
I do think Y/S (and to a lesser extent Chi) think of themselves as fundamentally different from HCN, and manage themselves accordingly. I knew lots of people who had very unique background and were open about having merely okay (at least as far as SLS was concerned) stats. S, at least, is trying to have its alums be all over the place rather than trying to dominate biglaw--and from what I understand, Y is much the same if not more so. That puts more of an impetus towards these unique outcomes, and therefore the school supports them more. Columbia and NYU in particular just don't seem to care as much (outside of RTK etc).
For the record, CLS has these, they're perhaps just not as publicized as they are elsewhere

*and definitely not as utilized

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:33 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:20 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:44 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm


"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Why don't other schools have this? A lot of the top schools could easily set aside 1m a year to send 20 kids to these positions. Y/S must seriously have different people. At my CCN I know a lot of people clerking a year or two after graduation and very few of them would have any interest in these types of jobs for a year pre-clerkship.
I do think Y/S (and to a lesser extent Chi) think of themselves as fundamentally different from HCN, and manage themselves accordingly. I knew lots of people who had very unique background and were open about having merely okay (at least as far as SLS was concerned) stats. S, at least, is trying to have its alums be all over the place rather than trying to dominate biglaw--and from what I understand, Y is much the same if not more so. That puts more of an impetus towards these unique outcomes, and therefore the school supports them more. Columbia and NYU in particular just don't seem to care as much (outside of RTK etc).
For the record, CLS has these, they're perhaps just not as publicized as they are elsewhere

*and definitely not as utilized
Northwestern has these also, but fewer of them I believe.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm


gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Yes I just mean the fellowship itself is usually not more prestigious than like DC biglaw lit. Of course what they do after may be more prestigious

Pretty much everyone who wants the funding gets it so it's all about the competitiveness of the actual position. the competitiveness of the positions is typically not gonna be above like a covington DC or williams & connelly. But obviously I disagree with anyone suggesting people doing these couldn't have done biglaw lol

"I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs."

this is the main sentence that is bizarre and doesn't really understand how these fellowships work. Nor does the writer understand how Yale and Stanford are different from other law schools.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 6:28 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:43 pm
throwawayt14 wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:06 pm


Without me needing to dig up years-old employment data, which I don't even know is still available, you can decide for yourself whether you seriously believe that Yale Law graduates are incapable of getting jobs during a huge legal boom and require the school to bail them out.
No one is saying this. The question is just getting at whether these fellowships are actually putting students into elite and competitive jobs or are they just fellowships that people at YLS think are elite. I also would like to see where these people go once the school funding ends and if they frequently stay with the same organizations. Frankly, I have a hard time considering it an elite outcome if the actual organization is not willing to hire you and pay you a salary.

Are these glorified one year internships or are they leading to full time employment with organizations like the ACLU?
I actually don't mind saying this. If these kids are unemployed in 3L and couldn't get paying jobs they wanted until mommy promised to fund it, then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs.

And, if the ACLU doesn't have the budget for this I highly doubt they will take them on full time post fellowship. So it's a glorified internship.
"then yeah I'll say they weren't capable of getting paid jobs" doesn't really make sense though because all of them go to do paid jobs after. they just preferred to go to that organization for a year instead of a different job. At SLS for example many people do 1 or 2 years of the fellowship then do biglaw, clerk, or PI

the folks who go to biglaw after got their jobs from OCI generally, they deferred
Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
HLS has them and most of the people I knew with them had the same outcome

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm

Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Lol, this stuff is published by the ABA in the employment summaries. Yale might be slightly higher but SLS is middling.

Behold, the top schools in the ABA employed by law school category:

1. YLS - 25
2. Berk - 20
3. Harvard - 16
4. Gtown - 15
5. UCLA - 13
5. SLS - 13
5. NYU - 13
6. UPenn - 10

Everyone else in the top schools are below 10, but all have funded positions.

For those curious, here are the PI stats per school:

1. NYU - 77
2. Gtown - 60
3. Berk - 55
4. Harvard - 47
5. UCLA - 45
6. UMich - 44
7. Yale - 42
8. Stanford - 27
9. Columbia - 22

The rest are below 20.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:39 pm

Northwestern has school funded positions but they are almost exclusively for unemployed kids. There's not that many of them because there's not that many unemployed. It's not something you pick when you have an alternative. If more people need them, I'm sure the school can find the funding for more.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:34 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm

Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Lol, this stuff is published by the ABA in the employment summaries. Yale might be slightly higher but SLS is middling.

Behold, the top schools in the ABA employed by law school category:

1. YLS - 25
2. Berk - 20
3. Harvard - 16
4. Gtown - 15
5. UCLA - 13
5. SLS - 13
5. NYU - 13
6. UPenn - 10

Everyone else in the top schools are below 10, but all have funded positions.

For those curious, here are the PI stats per school:

1. NYU - 77
2. Gtown - 60
3. Berk - 55
4. Harvard - 47
5. UCLA - 45
6. UMich - 44
7. Yale - 42
8. Stanford - 27
9. Columbia - 22

The rest are below 20.
Once you correct for student body size, it rapidly becomes Yale >> Stanford >>> everyone else, though. NYU is close on the PI metrics but otherwise the difference is pretty stark.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:34 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Apr 23, 2023 11:12 pm

Sure, they could all get some job. But apparently they are so entitled that the school is literally willing to pay for them to do temporary work for the types of organizations that they wanted jobs at, but could not in fact actually get real jobs at upon graduation from YLS.
gotcha yeah I wouldn't generally put it above high tier biglaw lit if that's what's meant by "elite outcome". I wouldn't put it on par with an Art. III clerkship generally
There's a lot of overlap. Most of the people I knew with these types of fellowships through SLS went on to clerk immediately after (and at least one went SLS -> fellowship -> clerk -> DOJ honors, since the fellowship preserves your eligibility). IMO they're very useful if you need something to do for a year pre-clerkship, or want to get your foot in the door at an elite PI opportunity that wouldn't take you normally. Very few schools have them/equivalents, which is part of why Y/S are in a league of their own.
Lol, this stuff is published by the ABA in the employment summaries. Yale might be slightly higher but SLS is middling.

Behold, the top schools in the ABA employed by law school category:

1. YLS - 25
2. Berk - 20
3. Harvard - 16
4. Gtown - 15
5. UCLA - 13
5. SLS - 13
5. NYU - 13
6. UPenn - 10

Everyone else in the top schools are below 10, but all have funded positions.

For those curious, here are the PI stats per school:

1. NYU - 77
2. Gtown - 60
3. Berk - 55
4. Harvard - 47
5. UCLA - 45
6. UMich - 44
7. Yale - 42
8. Stanford - 27
9. Columbia - 22

The rest are below 20.
Once you correct for student body size, it rapidly becomes Yale >> Stanford >>> everyone else, though. NYU is close on the PI metrics but otherwise the difference is pretty stark.
CUNY law is 54% public interest.
CUNY >>>>>>>>> Yale >> Stanford >>> everyone else

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:23 pm

the corporate culture at schools below Y and S generally indicates that at schools like Harvard and Columbia, the students more often went to law school to earn money. Few people are passionate about biglaw, especially transactional. That's why the Y and S biglaw rates are the lowest in the t-14 at like 35%. Contrast this with H in the 60s% and columbia in the 80s.

The people who go to Yale and Stanford are much more likely to actually like the law and to not have a desire to earn as much money as possible. Many more folks come from more lucrative fields and MBB to yale and stanford where they consciously decide to choose a path that is less lucrative. By contrast, folks that go to HLS and lower t14s by and large did not have more lucrative options and just go biglaw, many transactional, not out of passion but out of necessity/desire to earn more/didn't know what to do with their undergrad degree

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:23 pm
the corporate culture at schools below Y and S generally indicates that at schools like Harvard and Columbia, the students more often went to law school to earn money. Few people are passionate about biglaw, especially transactional. That's why the Y and S biglaw rates are the lowest in the t-14 at like 35%. Contrast this with H in the 60s% and columbia in the 80s.

The people who go to Yale and Stanford are much more likely to actually like the law and to not have a desire to earn as much money as possible. Many more folks come from more lucrative fields and MBB to yale and stanford where they consciously decide to choose a path that is less lucrative. By contrast, folks that go to HLS and lower t14s by and large did not have more lucrative options and just go biglaw, many transactional, not out of passion but out of necessity/desire to earn more/didn't know what to do with their undergrad degree
This is fake news and a bad take

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:23 pm
the corporate culture at schools below Y and S generally indicates that at schools like Harvard and Columbia, the students more often went to law school to earn money. Few people are passionate about biglaw, especially transactional. That's why the Y and S biglaw rates are the lowest in the t-14 at like 35%. Contrast this with H in the 60s% and columbia in the 80s.

The people who go to Yale and Stanford are much more likely to actually like the law and to not have a desire to earn as much money as possible. Many more folks come from more lucrative fields and MBB to yale and stanford where they consciously decide to choose a path that is less lucrative. By contrast, folks that go to HLS and lower t14s by and large did not have more lucrative options and just go biglaw, many transactional, not out of passion but out of necessity/desire to earn more/didn't know what to do with their undergrad degree
It never made sense to me that people group HLS together with YLS and SLS. Before this whole ranking withdral and LSAT Flex inflation every law school below YLS and SLS was entirely a numbers game. You were pretty much a lock at any non Y/S school with at or above median stats on both the LSAT and GPA. People see Columbia and NYU as peers when they were a 172/3.8 v. 170/3.8 school but all of a sudden a 173/3.9 school like HLS suddenly gets lumped together with Y and S. It's either that the 1-point difference between 172 and 173 is somehow magically special or the outcome has to justify the grouping. And the outcome doesn't justify it. The HLS student body is interchangeable with CCN and qualitatively different from YS.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:23 pm
the corporate culture at schools below Y and S generally indicates that at schools like Harvard and Columbia, the students more often went to law school to earn money. Few people are passionate about biglaw, especially transactional. That's why the Y and S biglaw rates are the lowest in the t-14 at like 35%. Contrast this with H in the 60s% and columbia in the 80s.

The people who go to Yale and Stanford are much more likely to actually like the law and to not have a desire to earn as much money as possible. Many more folks come from more lucrative fields and MBB to yale and stanford where they consciously decide to choose a path that is less lucrative. By contrast, folks that go to HLS and lower t14s by and large did not have more lucrative options and just go biglaw, many transactional, not out of passion but out of necessity/desire to earn more/didn't know what to do with their undergrad degree
This is wrong - HLS and Chicago both have a similar percentage of prestige undergrads to YS. I get distinguishing schools based on their outcomes, but the whole a "qualitatively different sort of student" goes to Yale or Stanford thing is kinda weird nonsense.

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Re: New US News Rankings 2023-2024

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:23 pm
the corporate culture at schools below Y and S generally indicates that at schools like Harvard and Columbia, the students more often went to law school to earn money. Few people are passionate about biglaw, especially transactional. That's why the Y and S biglaw rates are the lowest in the t-14 at like 35%. Contrast this with H in the 60s% and columbia in the 80s.

The people who go to Yale and Stanford are much more likely to actually like the law and to not have a desire to earn as much money as possible. Many more folks come from more lucrative fields and MBB to yale and stanford where they consciously decide to choose a path that is less lucrative. By contrast, folks that go to HLS and lower t14s by and large did not have more lucrative options and just go biglaw, many transactional, not out of passion but out of necessity/desire to earn more/didn't know what to do with their undergrad degree
This is wrong - HLS and Chicago both have a similar percentage of prestige undergrads to YS. I get distinguishing schools based on their outcomes, but the whole a "qualitatively different sort of student" goes to Yale or Stanford thing is kinda weird nonsense.
I think of these replies defending Y/S are actually written by HLS students trying to make Y/S look silly.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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