HLS (sticker) vs. Penn Levy ($$$$) Forum

[LilLawBoi]

Goals are a major city federal clerkship --> elite boutique lit. Maybe shoot for an AUSA position one day? Of course, these are lofty goals from either school—I think I'd be fine with NYC biglaw if I don't get the grades to be competitive for top clerkships, though I'm still more interested in litigation over transactional work.

HLS would cost about $300k, and non-tuition costs from Penn run around $80k. I'd be funding my education entirely through loans and about $30k I currently have in personal savings.

The thought of graduating with little debt and actually being able to enjoy my salary makes Penn incredibly tempting, but I just don't know if I'd be able to get over the "what could've been" of HLS. Is HLS justifiable, or is this a pure "TTMAR" situation? I have a lot to think about, but would love to hear any insights.

[trebekismyhero]

Penn is a no brainer here

[existentialcrisis]

I'll give some unsolicited advice and say that make sure that these are goals you actually want and that you don't feel drawn to them just because they feel like the shiniest law stickers.

That being said, please take the Penn money. Private practice, however long you spend there, will be so much more tolerable if you actually get to keep all that money you're making.

[talons2250]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

[Skool]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

Yes, you wouldn’t be the first person to throw away 200k+Interest for the sake of prestige.

You can’t eat prestige. When you want to buy a house you can put a down payment down with prestige. You can’t retire on prestige. You can’t pay for day care for your children with prestige.

Penn is plenty prestigious and significantly more affordable. Take the money and congratulations, this is an easy easy easy choice. Don’t over think it.

[nixy]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

Yeah, but because other people have done something doesn’t mean it’s not a mistake.

[jamestaylorrecordsas]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

Yes, you wouldn’t be the first person to throw away 200k+Interest for the sake of prestige.

You can’t eat prestige. When you want to buy a house you can put a down payment down with prestige. You can’t retire on prestige. You can’t pay for day care for your children with prestige.

Penn is plenty prestigious and significantly more affordable. Take the money and congratulations, this is an easy easy easy choice. Don’t over think it.

Penn has prestige except for how they're treating Amy Wax

[Dcc617]

Penn and it's not close.

[nixy]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

Yes, you wouldn’t be the first person to throw away 200k+Interest for the sake of prestige.

You can’t eat prestige. When you want to buy a house you can put a down payment down with prestige. You can’t retire on prestige. You can’t pay for day care for your children with prestige.

Penn is plenty prestigious and significantly more affordable. Take the money and congratulations, this is an easy easy easy choice. Don’t over think it.

Penn has prestige except for how they're treating Amy Wax

yeah, the fact that they haven't fired her yet is a travesty.

[Pneumonia]

I went to HLS and can confirm that Harvard does have a lot of intangible benefits that are hard to quantify. Especially with clients that aren't sophisticated, being able to say that you went to Harvard Law School gives you instant credibility. It is also a great alumni network, and the large class size is good too because there are alums everywhere. HLS also does really well for clerkships, and if you are aiming for a boutique, there are a few that hire almost exclusively from HYS. So it is up to each individual person whether to take HLS over a good scholarship at a lower-ranked school, but in your case you should absolutely take the money at Penn and not look back.

[jamestaylorrecordsas]

Penn is the economically rational choice, but many, many people in your position end up choosing HLS because then you get to say "I went to Harvard Law" for the rest of your life and lay people (including, potentially, future clients) will be more impressed with you. People on TLS scoff at caring about such things but it's deep-seated in many people's human nature and if you think the prestige is worth the debt, you wouldn't be the first person to make that decision.

Yes, you wouldn’t be the first person to throw away 200k+Interest for the sake of prestige.

You can’t eat prestige. When you want to buy a house you can put a down payment down with prestige. You can’t retire on prestige. You can’t pay for day care for your children with prestige.

Penn is plenty prestigious and significantly more affordable. Take the money and congratulations, this is an easy easy easy choice. Don’t over think it.

Penn has prestige except for how they're treating Amy Wax

yeah, the fact that they haven't fired her yet is a travesty.

Wax attended both Harvard Medical School (M.D. 1981) and Harvard Law School (first year of law school, 1981). Wax practiced medicine from 1982 to 1987, doing a residency in neurology at New York Hospital-Cornell Medical Center and working as a consulting neurologist at a clinic in the Bronx and for a medical group in Brooklyn. She completed her legal education at Columbia Law School (J.D. 1987; Editor of the Columbia Law Review), working part-time to put herself through law school.
She taught at University of Virginia Law School from 1994 to 2000.

Wax is the Robert Mundheim Professor of Law at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, having joined the law school's faculty in 2001. She received both the A. Leo Levin Award for Excellence in an Introductory Course, and the Harvey Levin Memorial Award for Teaching Excellence. In 2015, she received a Lindback Award for Distinguished Teaching, making her one of three Penn Law professors to have received the award in 20 years.

"...the decline of 'bourgeois values' (such as hard work, self-discipline, marriage, and respect for authority) had contributed to social ills such as male labor force participation rates down to Great Depression-era levels, endemic opioid abuse, half of all children being born to single mothers, and many college students lacking basic skills....all cultures are not equal. Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy. The mindset that values openness understands that the truth can be inconvenient and uncomfortable.... Hoarding and hiding information relevant to such differences... violates basic principles of fair play... Universities, like other institutions, scheme relentlessly to keep such facts from view."

I say silence Wax and boot her off Penn Law faculty since she's impolite.

[CanadianWolf]

Goals are a major city federal clerkship --> elite boutique lit. Maybe shoot for an AUSA position one day? Of course, these are lofty goals from either school—I think I'd be fine with NYC biglaw if I don't get the grades to be competitive for top clerkships, though I'm still more interested in litigation over transactional work.

HLS would cost about $300k, and non-tuition costs from Penn run around $80k. I'd be funding my education entirely through loans and about $30k I currently have in personal savings.

The thought of graduating with little debt and actually being able to enjoy my salary makes Penn incredibly tempting, but I just don't know if I'd be able to get over the "what could've been" of HLS. Is HLS justifiable, or is this a pure "TTMAR" situation? I have a lot to think about, but would love to hear any insights.

The "what could've been" is debtors prison.

(Yes, debtors prison still exists in the US as many are jailed for failure to pay fines or other court ordered payments.)

Don't be foolish, take the Penn Scholarship and you can still buy the Harvard hoodie.

[Wild Card]

Putting the Levy on your resume won't help you if your grades aren't good. Of course, you're likely to do well, but there's no guarantee. In which case HLS is a powerful safety net worth the investment.

Obviously, if you graduate bottom of the class at HLS, you're in trouble too lol.

But, then again, if the law school exam style isn't meant for you, it'd probably be better to graduate from Penn with 100K in debt rather than HLS with 350K in debt.

[empknight]

My brain says Penn but my heart says HLS. Ask yourself this: if I am mid at HLS vs mid at Penn what will my life look like later on--and is 220k going to make a difference in terms of those goals. On the flipside to "you can't eat with prestige" you can always make money--you can't exchange your experiences.

[Dcc617]

That's stupid. Your life will look extremely similar from median at Penn or Harvard. You're falling for the branding.

[asdfmailinator]

As someone who chose HLS over $$$ at other schools for a variety of reasons but did not have to take out loans to do so, I sometimes look back and wish I had the $ instead (even having achieved above median outcomes). Life changes over the course of law school and that kind of money can mean a lot of different things. I can only imagine those feelings would be more frequent and intense if the difference was not just in the bank account but actual debt.

[Wild Card]

To follow up on the above, I chose $60,000 from T6 over $120,000 from T14.

That's nowhere similar to your choice, but it's my "lived experience." I'm deeply bitter and resentful about my T6 causing me to owe so much money, but at the same time I landed generic biglaw postgrad, miraculously got to clerk for three years, and now I'm in bigfed. IDK whether I would have landed the same opportunities, or anywhere near as good, if I had chosen T14.

You just can't imagine a hypothetical life because so much could go right and so much could go wrong.

If I were in your position, I'd choose HLS, tbh.

(fwiw, a few years ago, I somehow convinced someone to take $90,000 from Michigan over sticker at NYU. This guy is currently balling out of control at Michigan. IDK whether he would have enjoyed such success at NYU. Some people are A-type superstars who will succeed anywhere. If that's you, go to Penn, obviously.)

[jmi114]

To follow up on the above, I chose $60,000 from T6 over $120,000 from T14.

That's nowhere similar to your choice, but it's my "lived experience." I'm deeply bitter and resentful about my T6 causing me to owe so much money, but at the same time I landed generic biglaw postgrad, miraculously got to clerk for three years, and now I'm in bigfed. IDK whether I would have landed the same opportunities, or anywhere near as good, if I had chosen T14.

You just can't imagine a hypothetical life because so much could go right and so much could go wrong.

If I were in your position, I'd choose HLS, tbh.

(fwiw, a few years ago, I somehow convinced someone to take $90,000 from Michigan over sticker at NYU. This guy is currently balling out of control at Michigan. IDK whether he would have enjoyed such success at NYU. Some people are A-type superstars who will succeed anywhere. If that's you, go to Penn, obviously.)

I am at Penn and I would choose HLS over Levy, but it depends on your financial background and risk tolerance. I do not want to be in New York, and that's the main reason. Clerkships are also a good reason, if that's necessary for your goals. Clerkships are hard to come by here, especially straight out of school, and there is little support. You realize in law school how many people have family or other personal connections that allow them to get to the tippy top elite positions and clerkships—not relying on the Penn name. Especially if you're a political moderate and not fedsoc. Penn is a transactional big law factory. Median at Penn, you might end up pushed into transactional (at OCI time, or at a firm). Many people are less than ecstatic with their big law outcomes (especially outside NYC) but there's pressure not to acknowledge that. The happy culture means people aren't straight with 1Ls about how competitive some things are even from a top school. Our OCS is incompetent for those who fall outside the typical NYC paths, and the clerkship advisor is even worse. If you are risk averse, have no undergrad loans and some possible financial support (i.e., you won't be supporting your parents later in life and they might give you money for a down payment on a house), then I'd lean HLS. But it's a personal decision.