Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts? Forum

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:45 pm

Agreed, SLS has been knocking on YLS' door for a while. YLS has taken a serious reputational hit and it just isn't far ahead of SLS on many other metrics (and behind on some).

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm

RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
No, and quoting what I said earlier:

I think the issue is whether they can articulate a legitimate diversity purpose without pointing to race. Like for instance, say, a Lakota applicant who grew up on the Pine Ridge reservation is probably going to offer a lot of diversity benefits to HYS in terms of socio-economic status, rural v urban or suburban, Midwest vs. east or west coast, possibly religious practices, and so on. (I give the NA example just bc it’s easy even though there’s also an argument that NA isn’t a racial category at all, it’s a political one - member of a tribe = domestic sovereign nation.)

Diversity is still a compelling interest. I also don't think it's a foregone conclusion that schools will flat out violate the bans, given that both California and Michigan have seen racial diversity decline precipitously in the wake of those bans.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
You're not getting the subtle difference between violating constitutional law vs. violating statutory requirements that in part rely on constitutional law

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:19 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
You're not getting the subtle difference between violating constitutional law vs. violating statutory requirements that in part rely on constitutional law
I’ll bite. What’s the practical difference?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
No, and quoting what I said earlier:

I think the issue is whether they can articulate a legitimate diversity purpose without pointing to race. Like for instance, say, a Lakota applicant who grew up on the Pine Ridge reservation is probably going to offer a lot of diversity benefits to HYS in terms of socio-economic status, rural v urban or suburban, Midwest vs. east or west coast, possibly religious practices, and so on. (I give the NA example just bc it’s easy even though there’s also an argument that NA isn’t a racial category at all, it’s a political one - member of a tribe = domestic sovereign nation.)

Diversity is still a compelling interest. I also don't think it's a foregone conclusion that schools will flat out violate the bans, given that both California and Michigan have seen racial diversity decline precipitously in the wake of those bans.
Can you provide data that diversity has declined? My understanding is that it has not declined.

Here are michigans numbers over the last 10 years. Diversity has increased every year and white people are below 60% of the student body. Are you telling me white people were below 50% or something of the student body pre 2006? I find that exceedingly hard to believe but would be interested in that data if you have it.

https://publicaffairs.vpcomm.umich.edu/ ... nrollment/

As to your other point, no one could fill a fully racially diverse class without taking race into account. There have been studies on this and the majority of folks who benefit from affirmative action are largely like their white counterparts (middle class folks from middle class backgrounds). Poor or unusual background diversity is rarer thank solely skin color diversity and you can’t get 40+% of your class that way unless you take race into account.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
No, and quoting what I said earlier:

I think the issue is whether they can articulate a legitimate diversity purpose without pointing to race. Like for instance, say, a Lakota applicant who grew up on the Pine Ridge reservation is probably going to offer a lot of diversity benefits to HYS in terms of socio-economic status, rural v urban or suburban, Midwest vs. east or west coast, possibly religious practices, and so on. (I give the NA example just bc it’s easy even though there’s also an argument that NA isn’t a racial category at all, it’s a political one - member of a tribe = domestic sovereign nation.)

Diversity is still a compelling interest. I also don't think it's a foregone conclusion that schools will flat out violate the bans, given that both California and Michigan have seen racial diversity decline precipitously in the wake of those bans.
Can you provide data that diversity has declined? My understanding is that it has not declined.

Here are michigans numbers over the last 10 years. Diversity has increased every year and white people are below 60% of the student body. Are you telling me white people were below 50% or something of the student body pre 2006? I find that exceedingly hard to believe but would be interested in that data if you have it.

https://publicaffairs.vpcomm.umich.edu/ ... nrollment/

As to your other point, no one could fill a fully racially diverse class without taking race into account. There have been studies on this and the majority of folks who benefit from affirmative action are largely like their white counterparts (middle class folks from middle class backgrounds). Poor or unusual background diversity is rarer thank solely skin color diversity and you can’t get 40+% of your class that way unless you take race into account.
I googled “impact of affirmative action ban in Michigan/California” and the decline in underrepresented minority enrollment was what came up in a number of results, though admittedly the decline was steeper in California than Michigan. (one example: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... ions-case/)

And I’m just offering a potential legal response. I don’t really get your last point. Are you saying that there aren’t enough poor/unusual background applicants to make up 40+ % of the class, so they must be looking at race? I think there are actually a lot of ways to define diversity, but okay. The ban has had an effect, though, so they’re clearly not just flat out ignoring it.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:35 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:33 pm
RedNewJersey wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:09 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:58 pm
I thought it was largely accepted that schools accepting federal funding were bound just the same. Harvard could likely discriminate to their hearts content if they didn’t, but they aren’t going to give up that cash, so it’s a moot point.
The bigger problem for HLS is that it's not enough for the law school to give up federal funding (which they could probably do)--my understanding is that Harvard University would need to give it up. That means no federal grants for their science and medical research, which is unthinkable.
Yeah, that’s my understanding too. I think it’s wild that all these schools are likely just going to flat violate constitutional law and the federal funding requirements. I wonder if there is criminal penalties associated with that if they knowingly do it.
No, and quoting what I said earlier:

I think the issue is whether they can articulate a legitimate diversity purpose without pointing to race. Like for instance, say, a Lakota applicant who grew up on the Pine Ridge reservation is probably going to offer a lot of diversity benefits to HYS in terms of socio-economic status, rural v urban or suburban, Midwest vs. east or west coast, possibly religious practices, and so on. (I give the NA example just bc it’s easy even though there’s also an argument that NA isn’t a racial category at all, it’s a political one - member of a tribe = domestic sovereign nation.)

Diversity is still a compelling interest. I also don't think it's a foregone conclusion that schools will flat out violate the bans, given that both California and Michigan have seen racial diversity decline precipitously in the wake of those bans.
Can you provide data that diversity has declined? My understanding is that it has not declined.

Here are michigans numbers over the last 10 years. Diversity has increased every year and white people are below 60% of the student body. Are you telling me white people were below 50% or something of the student body pre 2006? I find that exceedingly hard to believe but would be interested in that data if you have it.

https://publicaffairs.vpcomm.umich.edu/ ... nrollment/

As to your other point, no one could fill a fully racially diverse class without taking race into account. There have been studies on this and the majority of folks who benefit from affirmative action are largely like their white counterparts (middle class folks from middle class backgrounds). Poor or unusual background diversity is rarer thank solely skin color diversity and you can’t get 40+% of your class that way unless you take race into account.
I googled “impact of affirmative action ban in Michigan/California” and the decline in underrepresented minority enrollment was what came up in a number of results, though admittedly the decline was steeper in California than Michigan. (one example: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... ions-case/)

And I’m just offering a potential legal response. I don’t really get your last point. Are you saying that there aren’t enough poor/unusual background applicants to make up 40+ % of the class, so they must be looking at race? I think there are actually a lot of ways to define diversity, but okay. The ban has had an effect, though, so they’re clearly not just flat out ignoring it.
1. The Michigan thing is pretty clearly not true based on the data that I showed. You wil note that Michigan only says Black and Native Americans declined, while failing to mention overall diversity has gone up. There has not been a precipitous decline in racial diversity at Michigan.

2. I didn’t know that count California. Maybe it’s just Michigan who is clearly violating state law.

3. Yes… 40% of people don’t have interesting backgrounds/are poor. Even if there were, they wouldn’t all be diverse, right? A huge proportion of poor people are white. The only way to get specific numbers of each race is to take that race into account, right?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Itsalovestory » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:48 pm

It's my understanding that when Harvard & Yale opted out of the rankings that they will not appear in the rankings. US News could have kept them in the rankings but as a courtesy decided not to include them.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am

lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try

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nealric

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nealric » Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am
lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try
They’ve had essentially the same ranking since the rankings came out, save a few outlier years. I don’t think they were worried about falling rankings- more just trying to go along with the cool kids.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Baron7 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am
lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try
Why even bother making this comment?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Itsalovestory » Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm

Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am
lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try
Pull-out method has always worked for me :mrgreen:

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Cantabridgian » Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:16 pm

Rankings should be focusing on outcomes.

USN&WR doesn't focus very much on outcomes. Its listings since they began in 1990 have been and are primarily weighted on how hard it is to get into a particular law school (i.e., LSAT scores and raw undergrad GPA). I much prefer the Above the Law rankings.

Outcomes will continue to be published and, I hope, more relied upon by those who rate schools, because law schools have to report them. Once we focus on outcomes rather than difficulty of admission we will be able to consider a law school's worth by the best criterion available.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:56 pm

Common sense wisdom about schools is perfectly adequate. No other rankings are needed. Everyone knows essentially where schools stand in their region/nationally. It really doesn’t matter much if you go to NYU or Cornell. Likewise, a 40 vs. 70 rated school in the same market are also likely going to be pretty similar.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:12 pm

Cantabridgian wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:16 pm
Rankings should be focusing on outcomes.

USN&WR doesn't focus very much on outcomes. Its listings since they began in 1990 have been and are primarily weighted on how hard it is to get into a particular law school (i.e., LSAT scores and raw undergrad GPA). I much prefer the Above the Law rankings.

Outcomes will continue to be published and, I hope, more relied upon by those who rate schools, because law schools have to report them. Once we focus on outcomes rather than difficulty of admission we will be able to consider a law school's worth by the best criterion available.
ATL's rankings are somehow even dumber, at least at the top end. Any ranking that doesn't place YHS at the top of the pack (or at least near) just doesn't pass the sniff test. Are you really saying Washington & Lee has better exits than Stanford? That Georgia beats out Yale and Harvard?

There's a way to actually rank outcomes, but it would require OCS offices to give way more information than I think they'd ever want (something like lowest-ranked student after 1L to get BL/FC would be an extremely good metric, though subject to some noise I'm sure).

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm

Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.
Lol, welcome back to the 1930s, when the law school deans complained that focusing on merit was causing too much of the incoming class to be composed of "undesirables," rather than people with "leadership potential". The more things change, the more they ever stay the same...

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by aleaper192 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:06 pm

nealric wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am
lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try
They’ve had essentially the same ranking since the rankings came out, save a few outlier years. I don’t think they were worried about falling rankings- more just trying to go along with the cool kids.
I say this as a woman who has been continually harangued on this issue (it's stupid, I know):
A hyphen joins two or more words together while a dash separates words into parenthetical statements.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.
Lol, welcome back to the 1930s, when the law school deans complained that focusing on merit was causing too much of the incoming class to be composed of "undesirables," rather than people with "leadership potential". The more things change, the more they ever stay the same...
Seriously. Even with GPA/LSAT data, YLS has long served as the finishing school for the children of politicians/professors/judges. They attend, collect "Hs" in uncurved seminars, and get connected with plum post-graduate clerkships at small group dinners and cocktail parties. Now they don't even need to try to get a 170+.

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nealric

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nealric » Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:41 pm

aleaper192 wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:06 pm
nealric wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 am
lol at Georgetown pulling out too

that's not going to keep you in the T14, but nice try
They’ve had essentially the same ranking since the rankings came out, save a few outlier years. I don’t think they were worried about falling rankings- more just trying to go along with the cool kids.
I say this as a woman who has been continually harangued on this issue (it's stupid, I know):
A hyphen joins two or more words together while a dash separates words into parenthetical statements.
Yes, but a dash is annoying to type on your phone because it requires a different sub-menu for special characters. I will save the formalities for formal writing.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.
Lol, welcome back to the 1930s, when the law school deans complained that focusing on merit was causing too much of the incoming class to be composed of "undesirables," rather than people with "leadership potential". The more things change, the more they ever stay the same...
Seriously. Even with GPA/LSAT data, YLS has long served as the finishing school for the children of politicians/professors/judges. They attend, collect "Hs" in uncurved seminars, and get connected with plum post-graduate clerkships at small group dinners and cocktail parties. Now they don't even need to try to get a 170+.
My point is that the legal profession needs to look out for itself and self-correct. We compete with other professions for well rounded talent. Our barriers to entry at top schools are overly skewed towards a particular personality type that is too introverted, analytical, risk-adverse, and reserved. This has nothing to do with “undesirables” or selecting the daughters of COA judges. We need top people who have spent time in the world doing interesting things or who have that potential. We don’t need our crème de la crème crying during confirmation hearings while getting grilled about losing their virginity. Requiring 99th percentile LSAT performance and top GPAs excludes many people who could make the legal profession better by due to their ability to motivate and inspire others. I have seen far too many COA judges and law firm partners / associates with little speaking ability and who struggle to connect with other people. We are worse off for this. Throwing off the yoke of USNWR is one step towards correcting this issue.

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nealric

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nealric » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:50 am

Let's keep this thread on topic. A debate about affirmative action is going to get the thread locked.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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