Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts? Forum

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nealric » Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:16 pm

Thread cleaned up of posts by a previously banned poster who insists on continuing to make new alternate accounts. I've banned exactly one non-spam poster in the last 5 years, but at least two dozen of this poster's alts in the last couple months. Sorry for the thread derail.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Buglaw » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.
Lol, welcome back to the 1930s, when the law school deans complained that focusing on merit was causing too much of the incoming class to be composed of "undesirables," rather than people with "leadership potential". The more things change, the more they ever stay the same...
Seriously. Even with GPA/LSAT data, YLS has long served as the finishing school for the children of politicians/professors/judges. They attend, collect "Hs" in uncurved seminars, and get connected with plum post-graduate clerkships at small group dinners and cocktail parties. Now they don't even need to try to get a 170+.
My point is that the legal profession needs to look out for itself and self-correct. We compete with other professions for well rounded talent. Our barriers to entry at top schools are overly skewed towards a particular personality type that is too introverted, analytical, risk-adverse, and reserved. This has nothing to do with “undesirables” or selecting the daughters of COA judges. We need top people who have spent time in the world doing interesting things or who have that potential. We don’t need our crème de la crème crying during confirmation hearings while getting grilled about losing their virginity. Requiring 99th percentile LSAT performance and top GPAs excludes many people who could make the legal profession better by due to their ability to motivate and inspire others. I have seen far too many COA judges and law firm partners / associates with little speaking ability and who struggle to connect with other people. We are worse off for this. Throwing off the yoke of USNWR is one step towards correcting this issue.
Disagree. We are lawyers, not titans of industry, media personalities, risk takers, etc. we are the voice of caution in a room full of risk takers and removing the line voice of caution (which by design should be overly cautious) is not prudent. Yeah, lawyers are worse networkers, business minds, public speakers, etc. than their business counterparts, but that’s because they are not their business counterparts. They aren’t dealmakers, they are risk allocators, and they have a different skill set. I would not want a legal profession that looked more like the business world and I assume nor do other lawyers (or they wouldn’t have gone to law school instead of B-school).

I also have zero faith in anyone in academias ability to correctly do anything. I highly doubt giving more autonomy to academics will result in better outcomes. The last thing these people need is more autonomy.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nealric » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:50 am

Buglaw wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:27 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Itsalovestory wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:58 pm
Nov 25 podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, at 20 min

He summarized this thread in one sentence

They're pulling out of the ranking so they don't have to pay a price for ignoring LSAT and doing affirmative action.
The deans have long complained that they cannot shape classes in a way that creates the most interesting mix of people destined for long term success in and out of the law because they are forced to take overly analytical drones to boost GPA/LSAT scores. This is bad for the legal profession as a whole. Top Law schools miss out on dynamic personalities that become politicians, business leaders, and media personalities and our courts, law firms, and law schools get stuffed with super nerds. (No hate here, I like lawyers, but leadership potential ought to be more highly rewarded in the top legal pipelines).
Agree. My hope for all this is that that T14 schools—especially the ones with big class sizes—stop having to fill half their class with 3.9 GPA/175 LSAT clones in order to achieve increasingly ridiculous medians.
Lol, welcome back to the 1930s, when the law school deans complained that focusing on merit was causing too much of the incoming class to be composed of "undesirables," rather than people with "leadership potential". The more things change, the more they ever stay the same...
Seriously. Even with GPA/LSAT data, YLS has long served as the finishing school for the children of politicians/professors/judges. They attend, collect "Hs" in uncurved seminars, and get connected with plum post-graduate clerkships at small group dinners and cocktail parties. Now they don't even need to try to get a 170+.
My point is that the legal profession needs to look out for itself and self-correct. We compete with other professions for well rounded talent. Our barriers to entry at top schools are overly skewed towards a particular personality type that is too introverted, analytical, risk-adverse, and reserved. This has nothing to do with “undesirables” or selecting the daughters of COA judges. We need top people who have spent time in the world doing interesting things or who have that potential. We don’t need our crème de la crème crying during confirmation hearings while getting grilled about losing their virginity. Requiring 99th percentile LSAT performance and top GPAs excludes many people who could make the legal profession better by due to their ability to motivate and inspire others. I have seen far too many COA judges and law firm partners / associates with little speaking ability and who struggle to connect with other people. We are worse off for this. Throwing off the yoke of USNWR is one step towards correcting this issue.
Disagree. We are lawyers, not titans of industry, media personalities, risk takers, etc. we are the voice of caution in a room full of risk takers and removing the line voice of caution (which by design should be overly cautious) is not prudent. Yeah, lawyers are worse networkers, business minds, public speakers, etc. than their business counterparts, but that’s because they are not their business counterparts. They aren’t dealmakers, they are risk allocators, and they have a different skill set. I would not want a legal profession that looked more like the business world and I assume nor do other lawyers (or they wouldn’t have gone to law school instead of B-school).

I also have zero faith in anyone in academias ability to correctly do anything. I highly doubt giving more autonomy to academics will result in better outcomes. The last thing these people need is more autonomy.
I'm also not sure dropping the LSAT would materially change the personality of people applying to law school. The type of person attracted to law is simply going to be different from the type attracted to other professions, regardless of your selection criteria for specific schools. People who have been truly successful in the business world aren't being rejected en-masse in favor of K-JDs with high LSATs- those folks just aren't applying to go law school in the first place.

There's the stereotype of the "introverted nerd", but I don't think there's actually much correlation between ability to score well on a test and ability to "motivate and inspire others." Nor do I think such qualities can easily be discerned from a paper application (few law schools interview all candidates, and even fewer use that interview as a true gatekeeper).

It's sort of funny that people now regard standardized tests as discriminatory. They were actually adopted in masse precisely to get away from the "good old boy" selection criteria used prior to their existence. If you went to the "right" schools and had the "right" cultural background, you got in regardless of academic merit. Grades may be helpful, but the task of comparing vastly different majors and curriculum from vastly different schools is essentially impossible in any sort of objective way. With all its flaws, at least all applicants take (or at least took) the same standardized tests.

Anyhow, I think the rebellion against the LSAT and USNWR will change less than most think. Most applicants will still be well-advised to submit an LSAT (or at least GRE) score, and the general reputation of schools is not likely to change. If USNWR stopped publishing tomorrow, the only real result would be the end of pointless debates over whether Columbia is "better" than Chicago. Actually, it wouldn't even end those, but at least the magazine number wouldn't kick off or be used during those discussions.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by talons2250 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:15 pm

There is historical precedent for what happens when standardized tests become "optional".

Virtually all the top undergraduate colleges and universities are now test optional. And yet... the vast majority of applicants accepted continue to have scores in the same ranges that they did prior to the schools going test-optional.

So, not much will probably change with law schools going test optional. They will continue to admit mostly applicants with LSAT scores in the same range as those admitted in prior years.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm

Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nixy » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:05 pm

Since when is Chicago de-industrialized?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:13 am

nixy wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:05 pm
Since when is Chicago de-industrialized?
According to Cornell https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/de ... n-chicago/ it is.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nixy » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:54 am

laanngo wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:13 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:05 pm
Since when is Chicago de-industrialized?
According to Cornell https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/de ... n-chicago/ it is.
Okay, then what does this have to do with sticking with the USNWR rankings? (Northwestern is ditching them, so it can’t be purely location.)

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:53 am

nixy wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:54 am
laanngo wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:13 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:05 pm
Since when is Chicago de-industrialized?
According to Cornell https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/de ... n-chicago/ it is.
Okay, then what does this have to do with sticking with the USNWR rankings? (Northwestern is ditching them, so it can’t be purely location.)
I don't know, which is why I'm asking

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by marone » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 pm

laanngo wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm
Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?
Chicago (the whole university, not just the law school) has a chip on its shoulder about rankings and reputation. It would much rather be able to bill itself as the top-ranked law school in the country than give a few more public interest fellowships.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jamestaylorrecordsas » Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:20 pm

So now it's 9 top schools pulling out of rankings in 2 weeks?

And if they want out of the rankings it's not their decision, it's up to US News.

Legally, the schools must submit median LSAT (Standard 509 ABA disclosures) so technically US News still has the data to rank them.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:21 pm

marone wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 pm
laanngo wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm
Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?
Chicago (the whole university, not just the law school) has a chip on its shoulder about rankings and reputation. It would much rather be able to bill itself as the top-ranked law school in the country than give a few more public interest fellowships.
That makes sense, but it has such a good reputation in academia itself that largely explains its clerkship rate and levels. Anyone able to explain the other 2 schools?

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nixy » Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:39 pm

laanngo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:21 pm
marone wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 pm
laanngo wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm
Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?
Chicago (the whole university, not just the law school) has a chip on its shoulder about rankings and reputation. It would much rather be able to bill itself as the top-ranked law school in the country than give a few more public interest fellowships.
That makes sense, but it has such a good reputation in academia itself that largely explains its clerkship rate and levels. Anyone able to explain the other 2 schools?
Are you asking why the other 2 schools are sticking with USNWR, or why they have the clerkship rates they do? Presumably Cornell and WashU are sticking with the rankings b/c they figure if other schools drop out, they'll get ranked higher and that will be to their advantage. (What does Chicago's reputation explaining its clerkship rates have to do with this?)

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:24 am

nixy wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:39 pm
laanngo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:21 pm
marone wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 pm
laanngo wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm
Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?
Chicago (the whole university, not just the law school) has a chip on its shoulder about rankings and reputation. It would much rather be able to bill itself as the top-ranked law school in the country than give a few more public interest fellowships.
That makes sense, but it has such a good reputation in academia itself that largely explains its clerkship rate and levels. Anyone able to explain the other 2 schools?
Are you asking why the other 2 schools are sticking with USNWR, or why they have the clerkship rates they do? Presumably Cornell and WashU are sticking with the rankings b/c they figure if other schools drop out, they'll get ranked higher and that will be to their advantage. (What does Chicago's reputation explaining its clerkship rates have to do with this?)
It's always been one of the best law schools and Universities in this country. Being near the top of the rankings (3 before the mass pullout), or at the top (1 presumably after), spotlights that despite having less attention from the public from say princeton or mit

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nixy » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:54 am

laanngo wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:24 am
nixy wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:39 pm
laanngo wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 10:21 pm
marone wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 pm
laanngo wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:54 pm
Why do you think Chicago, Cornell, and Wash U are sticking to the rankings? Maybe I'm feeling to see a pattern. All 3 are in de-industrialized parts of the country. They score highly in academia and federal clerkships, NYC BigLaw, and scholarships and federal clerkships, respectively, which I believe factor into USNWR rankings. Any better insights?
Chicago (the whole university, not just the law school) has a chip on its shoulder about rankings and reputation. It would much rather be able to bill itself as the top-ranked law school in the country than give a few more public interest fellowships.
That makes sense, but it has such a good reputation in academia itself that largely explains its clerkship rate and levels. Anyone able to explain the other 2 schools?
Are you asking why the other 2 schools are sticking with USNWR, or why they have the clerkship rates they do? Presumably Cornell and WashU are sticking with the rankings b/c they figure if other schools drop out, they'll get ranked higher and that will be to their advantage. (What does Chicago's reputation explaining its clerkship rates have to do with this?)
It's always been one of the best law schools and Universities in this country. Being near the top of the rankings (3 before the mass pullout), or at the top (1 presumably after), spotlights that despite having less attention from the public from say princeton or mit
Sure, but I have no idea what that has to do with the original topic.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jamestaylorrecordsas » Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:11 am

After the mass pullout from the rankings, what if US News decides to keep ranking them? Maybe US News will not get all the information they got in the past, but they'll still be enough to assign a meaningful ranking. The median LSAT is still legally required to be disclosed by the school.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by laanngo » Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:19 am

jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:11 am
After the mass pullout from the rankings, what if US News decides to keep ranking them? Maybe US News will not get all the information they got in the past, but they'll still be enough to assign a meaningful ranking. The median LSAT is still legally required to be disclosed by the school.
I think that's more likely the more schools pull out. You can't have rankings without schools.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by ksm6969 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:24 pm

jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:11 am
After the mass pullout from the rankings, what if US News decides to keep ranking them? Maybe US News will not get all the information they got in the past, but they'll still be enough to assign a meaningful ranking. The median LSAT is still legally required to be disclosed by the school.
So much of the rankings are based on financial info (expenditures per student and whatnot) that I don’t think is public. There was a study a while ago that HLS could go to 180 and 4.0 medians , with perfect reputation scores, and still wouldn’t overcome Yale just because Yale’s low class size means huge expenditures per student. So keeping the rankings without that information will require substantial changes im the formula.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jamestaylorrecordsas » Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:54 pm

Picture this. Entire T14 announces in unison that LSAT will now be 1/2 of 1% of your admissions packet and the mandatory face to face interview will be 50%.
No more future lawsuits and they can continue on as they please, doing whatever they want and admitting whoever they want.

So you say your LSAT score was 30 points higher than mine and you were rejected? That has the same weight as being on the college water polo team, one semester, freshman year.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by ksm6969 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:51 pm

jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:54 pm
Picture this. Entire T14 announces in unison that LSAT will now be 1/2 of 1% of your admissions packet and the mandatory face to face interview will be 50%.
No more future lawsuits and they can continue on as they please, doing whatever they want and admitting whoever they want.

So you say your LSAT score was 30 points higher than mine and you were rejected? That has the same weight as being on the college water polo team, one semester, freshman year.
This is silly. If schools discriminate on the basis of race, there would continue to be lawsuits (assuming Harvard loses the pending suit). They could drop lsat altogether, who cares. I’m not sure there would be much difference in what you suggest vs what Harvard is being accused of now. Maybe it would be harder to prove, but like if Asians score consistently lower on interview scores, it raises the chance of lawsuits.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by Dcc617 » Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:05 pm

This thread is full of weird white grievance goblins.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jamestaylorrecordsas » Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:46 pm

Here's a mind bender. Harvard spins off the law school as a separate autonomous entity that accepts zero federal funds. Harvard Law can now do as they please with zero consequences. No lawsuit will ever get off the ground. It would be a waste of filing fees.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by nixy » Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm

jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:46 pm
Here's a mind bender. Harvard spins off the law school as a separate autonomous entity that accepts zero federal funds. Harvard Law can now do as they please with zero consequences. No lawsuit will ever get off the ground. It would be a waste of filing fees.
It's nice that you enjoy writing fiction, but this is never going to happen.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by ksm6969 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:03 am

nixy wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm
jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:46 pm
Here's a mind bender. Harvard spins off the law school as a separate autonomous entity that accepts zero federal funds. Harvard Law can now do as they please with zero consequences. No lawsuit will ever get off the ground. It would be a waste of filing fees.
It's nice that you enjoy writing fiction, but this is never going to happen.
It’s more likely that a democratic congress and WH would just amend the statute to allow affirmative action.

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Re: Yale and Harvard pulling out US News ranking, thoughts?

Post by jamestaylorrecordsas » Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:09 am

ksm6969 wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:03 am
nixy wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm
jamestaylorrecordsas wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:46 pm
Here's a mind bender. Harvard spins off the law school as a separate autonomous entity that accepts zero federal funds. Harvard Law can now do as they please with zero consequences. No lawsuit will ever get off the ground. It would be a waste of filing fees.
It's nice that you enjoy writing fiction, but this is never going to happen.
It’s more likely that a democratic congress and WH would just amend the statute to allow affirmative action.
Yes, but what if ballot initiative banning affirmative action within the state, which is what California and Michigan did. Congress & WH can't do anything about that.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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