Wisconsin v Notre Dame Forum

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NIMP

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Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by NIMP » Thu May 12, 2022 8:25 pm

Wisconsin native, accepted at both schools. Full ride to Wisconsin, roughly half tuition scholarship to Notre Dame. I would be fine with either big-law, or solo practice. Both seem daunting in their own way. If I go back to rural Wisconsin, I am unsure of the legal market (primarily pay), but it would be nicer than 80+ hour weeks at big law in a large metro. Would Notre Dame even guarantee big law though? Other general thoughts on the two schools?

CanadianWolf

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by CanadianWolf » Fri May 13, 2022 8:43 am

In your situation, Wisconsin with a full tuition scholarship seems to be the better & safer option.

nixy

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by nixy » Fri May 13, 2022 9:02 am

Notre Dame isn't going to guarantee biglaw, although the chances of biglaw out of Notre Dame are somewhat better than out of Wisconsin. But if you want to go back to Wisconsin, Wisconsin is the better option. It's true that the Wisconsin legal market isn't huge, but if you want to work there, Wisconsin is a good option for that. It looks like a decent chunk of Wisconsin grads (30%-ish) end up in "public interest," which in this context is likely to be state and local government and legal aid, which are great jobs for the right person, although not usually super high-paying. I tend to agree that Wisconsin is the better bet here, since you're not wed to biglaw in a major metro.

crazywafflez

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by crazywafflez » Fri May 13, 2022 12:03 pm

Go to Wisconsin.

silenttimer

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by silenttimer » Fri May 13, 2022 12:15 pm

Not sure if it's still the case, but I also recall that if you go to school in Wisconsin, you don't have to take the bar.

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mandrewsf

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by mandrewsf » Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am

I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.

NIMP

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by NIMP » Sat May 14, 2022 10:30 am

Thanks for the answers thus far. Admittedly, I am rather ignorant about certain aspects of the legal profession, so it is a little hard to make some of these decisions now. Since I have family ties to Wisconsin, and enjoy the rural culture, I obviously have some pull factor there, but if I had the capacity to make over one hundred thousand dollars in a large metro on the other end of the country, I would certainly take it. The primary issue seems to be an insecurity in terms of that sort of job actually being available. Yet, for the negative on the Wisconsin side, it seems that a LARGE percentage of its students work in "public interest" (which presumably is exceedingly low pay), and a large part of the motivation for me going to law school is to make more than my current sixty thousand per year salary. To the person who advocated for Notre Dame, my inclination is to attend there, but the extra one hundred thousand to attend seems like a lot to sacrifice for. However, would it be worth taking that hit to possibly make more after graduating from there?

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by mandrewsf » Sat May 14, 2022 7:58 pm

I assume that you are aware of the bi-modal nature of law graduates' income, but if not: approximately 10-15% of law grads are paid 215k per year their first year as a lawyer while the vast majority of the rest make less than 60k-80k their first year. The vast majority of Wisconsin's grads fall in the latter bracket, while your odds of making it into the first bucket is about 50-50 from Notre Dame, assuming you're not picky geographically. So by picking Notre Dame you'd effectively be paying 100k for a coinflip chance at making 215k when you graduate.

Of course, if you take a year off to retake your LSAT and get a high enough school for a T14 school, your chance of making 215k would probably increase by at least another 25-30% over Notre Dame.

andythefir

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by andythefir » Thu May 19, 2022 12:27 pm

I’m an ND grad, so I’m obviously biased. But when I was trying to get a job in my home state I was aggressively boxed out by local school homers who saw me as an outsider because I didn’t go to the local school. I ended up going to a rural part of the state, doing a ton of trials, and then the NDLS credential made my USAO applications much stronger than if I had gone to the local school. Now that I’m a career civil servant, the loans I took to go to ND are a non issue.

ND isn’t unknown to Wisconsin, but I have no idea what that means for the specific markets you’re targeting. I’d ask local practitioners, they’d know better than Internet people. But also be aware that the better school opens doors later in your career, too.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by existentialcrisis » Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm

mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by nealric » Tue May 24, 2022 11:32 am

existentialcrisis wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm
mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.
Yes. As someone who started law school in 2007, I can attest that the hiring market can swing dramatically between when you start law school and when you actually start applying for jobs. When I arrived in school, the 2L's told us during orientation "don't worry about grades or OCI, everyone gets a biglaw job who wants one." Turned out the hiring environment went from "anybody with a pulse from this school gets biglaw" to only the top 1/3 has a good chance. The following year, even a lot of top 1/3 types got shut out. And then offer rates if you did get a summer gig were often 50-60% instead of the "every summer gets an offer" of years past.

Things were even worse at many T30ish schools where it went from "median has a chance at biglaw" to "only top 10% have a chance." Higher-ranked schools are more insulated. HYS types still got jobs during the great recession, they just might have had to "slum" it at lower v100 firms if they were further down in the class.

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by mandrewsf » Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm
mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.
Well, if you think it's going to be bad at Notre Dame, imagine how much worse it would be at Wisconsin for OP's stated goals.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by existentialcrisis » Fri May 27, 2022 8:45 am

mandrewsf wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 pm
existentialcrisis wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm
mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.
Well, if you think it's going to be bad at Notre Dame, imagine how much worse it would be at Wisconsin for OP's stated goals.
Well first of all, if the OP is, in fact, happy with a small firm in Wisconsin, which I believe they at least suggested, Wisconsin with a full ride is a great option.

If they're big law or bust, then they shouldn't go to either school and should re-take and reapply.

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by latinx » Sat May 28, 2022 11:16 am

existentialcrisis wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:45 am
mandrewsf wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 pm
existentialcrisis wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm
mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.
Well, if you think it's going to be bad at Notre Dame, imagine how much worse it would be at Wisconsin for OP's stated goals.
Well first of all, if the OP is, in fact, happy with a small firm in Wisconsin, which I believe they at least suggested, Wisconsin with a full ride is a great option.

If they're big law or bust, then they shouldn't go to either school and should re-take and reapply.
Retake and reapply is not always a sound strategy. If someone only takes the LSAT once and didn't study for it very much, then certainly they can expect to do much better by retaking. However, if someone has already taken the LSAT three times (the maximum number allowed in one year), done a couple of prep classes, studied for hundreds of hours, then it is likely that retaking will not produce a significant bump in their score. There are costs to reapplying, most notably either a lost year of income or a delayed retirement. There are also the costs of further tutoring or prep classes, LSAT exams, LSAC applications, etc. These costs are minor if a significant increase in LSAT score results, as they will gain merit aid. However, if their LSAT score doesn't rise appreciably, it is even possible they will lose more than they gain. Particularly if the economy goes into recession and the number of law school applicants skyrockets next year, which will inflate LSAT scores needed to even obtain the same schools to which they have been admitted this year

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existentialcrisis

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Re: Wisconsin v Notre Dame

Post by existentialcrisis » Sat May 28, 2022 4:40 pm

latinx wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:16 am
existentialcrisis wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:45 am
mandrewsf wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 pm
existentialcrisis wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 12:16 pm
mandrewsf wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:36 am
I'm going to argue for ND since most here argue for Wisconsin just to offer multiple view points - ND is among the most portable of the non-T14 schools and it is one of the few schools where you have a reasonable shot at biglaw from median. If you want to work at anywhere outside of Wisconsin, you should consider ND. You'll be able to find a good job in Wisconsin out of ND anyway, so effectively for the price of half of your tuition you get to keep much wider options open. Only you could decide whether that's worth it.
We've been a boom economy for a long time and the bolded may be true for the past few years. That being said, it absolutely will not be the case if the economy goes south.

Those Top-20 type schools placement was far, far worse up until about 2017 or so. Most of the T14, even during the depths of the great recession were placing >50% of its classes in BL + FC, but Notre Dame, WUSTL, etc. definitely were not.
Well, if you think it's going to be bad at Notre Dame, imagine how much worse it would be at Wisconsin for OP's stated goals.
Well first of all, if the OP is, in fact, happy with a small firm in Wisconsin, which I believe they at least suggested, Wisconsin with a full ride is a great option.

If they're big law or bust, then they shouldn't go to either school and should re-take and reapply.
Retake and reapply is not always a sound strategy. If someone only takes the LSAT once and didn't study for it very much, then certainly they can expect to do much better by retaking. However, if someone has already taken the LSAT three times (the maximum number allowed in one year), done a couple of prep classes, studied for hundreds of hours, then it is likely that retaking will not produce a significant bump in their score. There are costs to reapplying, most notably either a lost year of income or a delayed retirement. There are also the costs of further tutoring or prep classes, LSAT exams, LSAC applications, etc. These costs are minor if a significant increase in LSAT score results, as they will gain merit aid. However, if their LSAT score doesn't rise appreciably, it is even possible they will lose more than they gain. Particularly if the economy goes into recession and the number of law school applicants skyrockets next year, which will inflate LSAT scores needed to even obtain the same schools to which they have been admitted this year
If someone is big law or bust it is. You should always assume that you'll be a median student and put yourself in a position where you'll at least have a decent chance from median, regardless of the state of the economy.

There was a time not too long ago when the economy wasn't as strong, where the Notre Dames, WUSTLs and GWs of the world were known as 'trap schools' because they sold themselves as having national placement power but really only offered that to 1/3rd of their classes.

If you want big law and the economy tanks (which is the scenario you're posing) than NDLS is definitely not somewhere you're even close to safe.

Now whether someone should want big law is an entirely different question, that is totally reasonable, but the entire premise of my post was that, assuming you're OK with a small firm in Wisconsin, then WI is an excellent choice. If you're picking Notre Dame because of its stronger placement with national firms, you really should be going to a better school anyway.

Edit: This has also gotten way off track from OP's initial question.

OP - You seem to be pretty wary of big law generally. Speaking from experience, you are 100% right to be. I think it worked out for me and I don't necessarily regret it, but I think if you already believe you'd prefer working at a small firm, then there's strong reason to believe that would be a better option for you.

If you're comfortable with a small firm in WI, then Wisconsin Law for free is the best possible option.

To answer your other question - No. Full stop. Even during a boom economy ND does not guarantee big law. During a recession, it doesn't come anywhere close (even to guaranteeing a job at all). Take a look at Notre Dame's employment Numbers from 2009-2016ish.

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