UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker) Forum

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maroon99

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UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by maroon99 » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:57 pm

Am I being dumb for still going back and forth between these two schools, even though Chicago hasn't offered me anything? UVA offered me $140k, but no scholarship at UChi. Planning on going into private practice (BL and in-house) in the West Coast. I particularly am planning on going into the smaller west coast markets like Seattle, Portland, and San Diego, due to ties there. I visited both Chicago and UVA, and loved each school for different reasons. I feel like I would be happier at UVA due to the culture and how friendly everyone seemed (as well as weather/nature), but love the city of Chicago and feel like the U of C would prepare me best as a lawyer in the long-run. Chicago also has a lot of clinics that I would love to take. Given my career interests, how much weight should I put on the debt factor (I don't have UG debt)? Are the differences so small between the two that I should just take the money? If I'll be making enough money long-term that debt is a non-factor, then should debt even be in the conversation?

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by crazywafflez » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:23 am

Chi is a smidge better for unicorn goals.
Given your goals, I'd really urge you to go to UVA.
Chi is maybe worth 30-50k more than UVA. But 140kish more? No way.
Students have fairly similar outcomes at median, and I'd urge you to take UVA.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by nixy » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:26 am

Take the money.

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trafalgar

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by trafalgar » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:13 am

UChi and UVA will have you equally prepared to practice law, the outcomes from both schools are essentially the same, and UVA is available at a much cheaper rate. Go to UVA.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by talons2250 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:43 am

maroon99 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:57 pm
Am I being dumb for still going back and forth between these two schools, even though Chicago hasn't offered me anything? UVA offered me $140k, but no scholarship at UChi. Planning on going into private practice (BL and in-house) in the West Coast. I particularly am planning on going into the smaller west coast markets like Seattle, Portland, and San Diego, due to ties there. I visited both Chicago and UVA, and loved each school for different reasons. I feel like I would be happier at UVA due to the culture and how friendly everyone seemed (as well as weather/nature), but love the city of Chicago and feel like the U of C would prepare me best as a lawyer in the long-run. Chicago also has a lot of clinics that I would love to take. Given my career interests, how much weight should I put on the debt factor (I don't have UG debt)? Are the differences so small between the two that I should just take the money? If I'll be making enough money long-term that debt is a non-factor, then should debt even be in the conversation?
It is not true that U of C "would prepare [you] best as a lawyer in the long-run." If the logic here is that the higher ranked the school, the better the school prepares you to be a lawyer, then that is... emphatically not the case. At any elite school like Chicago or UVA, the doctrinal classes are mostly going to be theoretical and traditionally "academic." The professors are in their positions because they are talented legal scholars, not because they know anything about the actual practice of law. Students can take it upon themselves at either UVA or Chicago to make their education more practical by enrolling in clinics, etc. In terms of Chicago's clinics, keep in mind that law school is only three years and you'll probably only have time for 2-3 clinics max. Also, keep in mind that Chicago is in Hyde Park. It's not in downtown Chicago like Northwestern Law. If you want to get to any fun neighborhood, it's going to be a bit of a commute.

That said, assuming you'd be at median at either school (which is a good thing to assume for purposes of making this decision), it's probably true that median at Chicago gets you more options on the West Coast than median at UVA. But is that insurance policy worth $140K? Depends on how debt averse you are.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:15 pm

Virginia at $140,000 less than Chicago is the better option for you since you do not have specific career goals that might suggest that Chicago is the better option.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by showusyourtorts » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm

OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by maroon99 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:25 am

showusyourtorts wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm
OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.
Sorry for the late reply! I showed my offers to Chicago (including $130k from Michigan) but they did not budge at all on the scholarship issue. The thing is, while I do want to do BigLaw, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do afterwards, and don't necessarily want to rule out academia, potentially. I would definitely be interested in a clerkship, but might change my mind if I decide that I'd prefer to do transactional work. So overall, my goals aren't fully made up yet. Given this, I've been feeling that Chicago would be the school that would keep my options open the most. I'm also pretty familiar with the Hyde Park scene, as I went to UChicago for my undergrad. I know I love the city (hate the cold), but I also had an incredible time at UVA, where I thought the people were nicer. Overall, I felt like I might enjoy my time more at UVA than Chicago, but since law school is only three years, I don't know how much I should value this factor. I'm also considering the fact that Chicago's ranking puts it as a peer or near-peer of Harvard, which over the long-term, might benefit me if I go.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:36 am

If Chicago won't give you a decent scholarship offer, go to UVA. There is no universe in which Chicago is worth $140k for the marginal increase it offers for very specific job opportunities.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by pkeller » Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:16 am

maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:25 am
showusyourtorts wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm
OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.
Sorry for the late reply! I showed my offers to Chicago (including $130k from Michigan) but they did not budge at all on the scholarship issue. The thing is, while I do want to do BigLaw, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do afterwards, and don't necessarily want to rule out academia, potentially. I would definitely be interested in a clerkship, but might change my mind if I decide that I'd prefer to do transactional work. So overall, my goals aren't fully made up yet. Given this, I've been feeling that Chicago would be the school that would keep my options open the most. I'm also pretty familiar with the Hyde Park scene, as I went to UChicago for my undergrad. I know I love the city (hate the cold), but I also had an incredible time at UVA, where I thought the people were nicer. Overall, I felt like I might enjoy my time more at UVA than Chicago, but since law school is only three years, I don't know how much I should value this factor. I'm also considering the fact that Chicago's ranking puts it as a peer or near-peer of Harvard, which over the long-term, might benefit me if I go.
I am a UVA Law alum so I am biased (not an ad comm). I too loved the people at UVA and hated the cold (undergrad was in Chicago as well). The people at UVA are really close--if you're looking for community, go there. They really value collegiality and I learned so much from my classmates. I chose UVA because I thought I would do best where I was comfortable. Fun isn't often the word you associate with law school, but I genuinely loved my three years in Cville. Quality of life is a huge factor for me.

I found the career services office to be extremely on top of things and impressive, which is probably one of the reasons why UVA places so well in big law (see the ATL rankings). UVA also does well with clerkships--we've had an increasing number of alums at the Supreme Court. UVA also made the top ten for "Best Professors" and was voted number one quality of life (again, it's law school though, so take it with a grain of salt).

https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/20211 ... w-rankings



One thing they brought up to me was that this would be (potentially) only chance to live in a small town since I'd probably be working in a bigger city after graduation.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by maroon99 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:16 pm

pkeller wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:16 am
maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:25 am
showusyourtorts wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm
OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.
Sorry for the late reply! I showed my offers to Chicago (including $130k from Michigan) but they did not budge at all on the scholarship issue. The thing is, while I do want to do BigLaw, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do afterwards, and don't necessarily want to rule out academia, potentially. I would definitely be interested in a clerkship, but might change my mind if I decide that I'd prefer to do transactional work. So overall, my goals aren't fully made up yet. Given this, I've been feeling that Chicago would be the school that would keep my options open the most. I'm also pretty familiar with the Hyde Park scene, as I went to UChicago for my undergrad. I know I love the city (hate the cold), but I also had an incredible time at UVA, where I thought the people were nicer. Overall, I felt like I might enjoy my time more at UVA than Chicago, but since law school is only three years, I don't know how much I should value this factor. I'm also considering the fact that Chicago's ranking puts it as a peer or near-peer of Harvard, which over the long-term, might benefit me if I go.
I am a UVA Law alum so I am biased (not an ad comm). I too loved the people at UVA and hated the cold (undergrad was in Chicago as well). The people at UVA are really close--if you're looking for community, go there. They really value collegiality and I learned so much from my classmates. I chose UVA because I thought I would do best where I was comfortable. Fun isn't often the word you associate with law school, but I genuinely loved my three years in Cville. Quality of life is a huge factor for me.

I found the career services office to be extremely on top of things and impressive, which is probably one of the reasons why UVA places so well in big law (see the ATL rankings). UVA also does well with clerkships--we've had an increasing number of alums at the Supreme Court. UVA also made the top ten for "Best Professors" and was voted number one quality of life (again, it's law school though, so take it with a grain of salt).

https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/20211 ... w-rankings



One thing they brought up to me was that this would be (potentially) only chance to live in a small town since I'd probably be working in a bigger city after graduation.
Thanks for the quick reply, pkeller. Those are all great points. I currently live in a small town even smaller than C'ville, and I love it. Being from the West Coast, I love all the nature and outdoor opportunities in C'ville. I've also made so many friends at the UVA ASW, while at U of C some people (not all) seemed a bit standoffish. I guess my main concern is that if Chicago would give me better opportunities on the West Coast in the long-term than UVA, (given Chicago's very small class size and how top firms hire deeper into the class), then maybe I should swallow the fit/culture issues and put aside the debt factor. Although overall, Chicago would cost $200k more to service the debt...

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by pkeller » Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:26 pm

maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:16 pm
pkeller wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 11:16 am
maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:25 am
showusyourtorts wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm
OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.
Sorry for the late reply! I showed my offers to Chicago (including $130k from Michigan) but they did not budge at all on the scholarship issue. The thing is, while I do want to do BigLaw, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do afterwards, and don't necessarily want to rule out academia, potentially. I would definitely be interested in a clerkship, but might change my mind if I decide that I'd prefer to do transactional work. So overall, my goals aren't fully made up yet. Given this, I've been feeling that Chicago would be the school that would keep my options open the most. I'm also pretty familiar with the Hyde Park scene, as I went to UChicago for my undergrad. I know I love the city (hate the cold), but I also had an incredible time at UVA, where I thought the people were nicer. Overall, I felt like I might enjoy my time more at UVA than Chicago, but since law school is only three years, I don't know how much I should value this factor. I'm also considering the fact that Chicago's ranking puts it as a peer or near-peer of Harvard, which over the long-term, might benefit me if I go.
I am a UVA Law alum so I am biased (not an ad comm). I too loved the people at UVA and hated the cold (undergrad was in Chicago as well). The people at UVA are really close--if you're looking for community, go there. They really value collegiality and I learned so much from my classmates. I chose UVA because I thought I would do best where I was comfortable. Fun isn't often the word you associate with law school, but I genuinely loved my three years in Cville. Quality of life is a huge factor for me.

I found the career services office to be extremely on top of things and impressive, which is probably one of the reasons why UVA places so well in big law (see the ATL rankings). UVA also does well with clerkships--we've had an increasing number of alums at the Supreme Court. UVA also made the top ten for "Best Professors" and was voted number one quality of life (again, it's law school though, so take it with a grain of salt).

https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/20211 ... w-rankings



One thing they brought up to me was that this would be (potentially) only chance to live in a small town since I'd probably be working in a bigger city after graduation.
Thanks for the quick reply, pkeller. Those are all great points. I currently live in a small town even smaller than C'ville, and I love it. Being from the West Coast, I love all the nature and outdoor opportunities in C'ville. I've also made so many friends at the UVA ASW, while at U of C some people (not all) seemed a bit standoffish. I guess my main concern is that if Chicago would give me better opportunities on the West Coast in the long-term than UVA, (given Chicago's very small class size and how top firms hire deeper into the class), then maybe I should swallow the fit/culture issues and put aside the debt factor. Although overall, Chicago would cost $200k more to service the debt...
I personally would be concerned about fit issues and culture issues. It's still three years of your life, you want to like the people and be happy. FWIW, I turned down a higher ranked school (not U of C) because the people at ASW were a bit obnoxious and I didn't like the culture/feel of that school. They opened talking about careers, which is great, but you can't overlook the time you're in law school too.

UVA also has a "West Coast Wahoos" group that focuses on placing students on the West Coast.

I promise I am not trying to pressure you. I think either option is understandable and it's totally your decision.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by talons2250 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:37 pm

I would urge you to talk to some current Chicago students and ask them questions about their experience at the school. You could even be really blunt and say that some Chicago people seemed stand-off-ish and not friendly, and ask them if that's been their experience. (You're already admitted, so the potential adverse consequences of coming off poorly to a current UChi 1L or 2L are minimal.) Some Chicago people who you talked to at ASW seeming stand-off-ish could just be a coincidence. Maybe if you happened to be somewhere different in the room, you would have instead spoken to some lovely people. Conversely, perhaps you had the good fortune of chatting with really personable, nice people at UVA, and you narrowly avoided talking to someone who is insufferable. All to say, our snap judgments based on several social interactions at admitted students weekend are not always great evidence to base big life decisions like this on.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:35 pm

I'm not sure why we're focusing on the social atmosphere at both schools. That may be a relevant consideration when uthe schools are a comparable price, but even if your BFF will be going to Chicago, it's not worth that much extra over UVA.

And UVA will absolutely get you back to the West Coast. You have ties. You don't need any help from your school to go back (assuming that Chicago even offers an advantage here, which is probably not accurate).

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by maroon99 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:01 pm

Thanks all for the replies. Yes, it's definitely possible that it may have just been a matter of who I happened to meet at the ASWs, and I probably shouldn't factor that into my decision as much. Honestly, I'd probably end up finding great friend groups at either place. Having lived in both Hyde Park and a small town very similar to C'ville, they both have their own pluses.

I guess what I'm primarily trying to parse out is whether Chicago in the long run would give me an edge in the most elite job opportunities, i.e. my top pick over the higher-ranked West Coast firms like Latham, or eventually, an advantage when applying for in-house positions at coveted West Coast tech firms like FAANG. In that case, it seems like even if I stayed in Biglaw for only a few years and got burnt out quickly, my exit options to other relatively high-paying positions with more reasonable work-life balances would still be phenomenal. Maybe I'm biased given my undergrad, but I have been holding U of C up to the same standing as T-3 schools like Harvard, where it seems people are much more likely to say attending at sticker is worth it. Does any of this hold true?

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by talons2250 » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:07 pm

maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:01 pm
Thanks all for the replies. Yes, it's definitely possible that it may have just been a matter of who I happened to meet at the ASWs, and I probably shouldn't factor that into my decision as much. Honestly, I'd probably end up finding great friend groups at either place. Having lived in both Hyde Park and a small town very similar to C'ville, they both have their own pluses.

I guess what I'm primarily trying to parse out is whether Chicago in the long run would give me an edge in the most elite job opportunities, i.e. my top pick over the higher-ranked West Coast firms like Latham, or eventually, an advantage when applying for in-house positions at coveted West Coast tech firms like FAANG. In that case, it seems like even if I stayed in Biglaw for only a few years and got burnt out quickly, my exit options to other relatively high-paying positions with more reasonable work-life balances would still be phenomenal. Maybe I'm biased given my undergrad, but I have been holding U of C up to the same standing as T-3 schools like Harvard, where it seems people are much more likely to say attending at sticker is worth it. Does any of this hold true?
For some people, going to a very prestigious or highly ranked law school is an end unto itself. It's almost never "rational" to turn down a substantial aid package at a T14 to attend HYS at sticker. The vast majority of HYS grads, when all is said and done, end up with a job that they would have been able to get had they gone to another T14 school. This logic also applies to Chicago in your situation. If saying, "I went to Chicago Law" will bring you immense pride and the name recognition to you personally is worth the debt, then go for it. But it's really unlikely that going to Chicago over UVA will make a difference in your ultimate employment outcomes on the West Coast in the grand scheme.

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Re: UVA ($$) vs Chicago (sticker)

Post by toile » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:14 pm

maroon99 wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:25 am
showusyourtorts wrote:
Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 pm
OP, I'm assuming that you have shared your UVA scholarship with Chicago? I'm surprised that Chicago didn't throw you some money given the large aid package from UVA.

If Chicago isn't giving any aid, then I think it's an easy decision to go for UVA. You'll be the main driver of your education at either school, and either school would be able to provide an incredible legal education should you chose to "opt in" to taking advantage of its resources (whether that's taking classes seriously, enrolling in meaningful clinics, or going further and engaging with professors outside of class, etc.). Employment outcomes would be virtually the same at either unless, say, you were aiming for a prestigious clerkship or would like to be an academic (and even in those cases, the statistics would not be all that different from each other). Debt is more than it seems, the interest adds up quickly, you'll earn less than it seems once taxes are considered, and the freedom to know you can leave BigLaw because you're nearly debt-free is priceless.
Sorry for the late reply! I showed my offers to Chicago (including $130k from Michigan) but they did not budge at all on the scholarship issue. The thing is, while I do want to do BigLaw, I'm not entirely sure what I'd like to do afterwards, and don't necessarily want to rule out academia, potentially. I would definitely be interested in a clerkship, but might change my mind if I decide that I'd prefer to do transactional work. So overall, my goals aren't fully made up yet. Given this, I've been feeling that Chicago would be the school that would keep my options open the most. I'm also pretty familiar with the Hyde Park scene, as I went to UChicago for my undergrad. I know I love the city (hate the cold), but I also had an incredible time at UVA, where I thought the people were nicer. Overall, I felt like I might enjoy my time more at UVA than Chicago, but since law school is only three years, I don't know how much I should value this factor. I'm also considering the fact that Chicago's ranking puts it as a peer or near-peer of Harvard, which over the long-term, might benefit me if I go.
As someone who also went into law school thinking maybe, vaguely I'd be interested in academia one day, I thought I'd warn you that the academic path is probably one of the most difficult outcomes to obtain, and not something you should conceptualize as an easy or probable pivot. The job market continues to get more crowded, and if you're interested in a tenure-track position, you're probably going to need a PhD / SCOTUS clerkship / gold-star fellowship after law school to be competitive. There are, of course, lecturer-from-practice / adjunct positions, but non-tenure positions don't pay enough to be a primary career, and the pivot from practice into academia tends to quite difficult (it is doable, but rare).

At the end of the day, the "right" choice and your outcomes will depend heavily on how well you do at law school. I'd think the top 5-10% at Chicago achieve comparable outcomes to the top 1-2% at UVA (for "unicorn" stuff like SCOTUS, academia, ACLU, top govt jobs) and the top 20% at Chicago is comparable to top 5-10% at UVA (people here are probably more looking at elite biglaw; litigation boutiques) but below that, the two schools are probably more or less fungible. The question is, do you think you're doing to do well enough to substantiate that $140K difference?

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