Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC Forum

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gabawat

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by gabawat » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:40 pm

What are the possibilities of Chicago ever achieving a tie at #2 with Stanford, or even displacing it? Of course it's impossible to predict the long term, but is it within the realm of reasonable possibility for the next few decades?

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by musiccityboer » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:08 pm

gabawat wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:40 pm
What are the possibilities of Chicago ever achieving a tie at #2 with Stanford, or even displacing it? Of course it's impossible to predict the long term, but is it within the realm of reasonable possibility for the next few decades?
I would be more interested in a potential Stanford jump over Yale at this point, but that's possible too. the daylight between Y and S is significantly less than between S and Chi/HLS

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by toast and bananas » Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:33 pm

musiccityboer wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:08 pm
gabawat wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:40 pm
What are the possibilities of Chicago ever achieving a tie at #2 with Stanford, or even displacing it? Of course it's impossible to predict the long term, but is it within the realm of reasonable possibility for the next few decades?
I would be more interested in a potential Stanford jump over Yale at this point, but that's possible too. the daylight between Y and S is significantly less than between S and Chi/HLS
'

By what metrics is Stanford beating Chi/HLS that results in there being "significant daylight" between them in your view?

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:37 pm

musiccityboer wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:08 pm
gabawat wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:40 pm
What are the possibilities of Chicago ever achieving a tie at #2 with Stanford, or even displacing it? Of course it's impossible to predict the long term, but is it within the realm of reasonable possibility for the next few decades?
I would be more interested in a potential Stanford jump over Yale at this point, but that's possible too. the daylight between Y and S is significantly less than between S and Chi/HLS
Other way around in terms of "daylight". These schools are basically maxed on the rankings criteria which have ceilings (medians, reputation score out of 5, bar passage rates, employment rates) and so the main thing left for them to compete on is expenditures per student, where the sky's the limit.

Yale outspends everybody by such a wide margin that they are basically unassailable unless Stanford or Chicago can get a billionaire alumnus to really make it rain, or Harvard cuts its class size to 250 (which would probably also require a dump truck of money).

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by TheNavigator » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:02 pm

Should this have any bearing in my choosing NYU vs Columbia?

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Pulsar

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by Pulsar » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:30 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:37 pm
musiccityboer wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:08 pm
gabawat wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:40 pm
What are the possibilities of Chicago ever achieving a tie at #2 with Stanford, or even displacing it? Of course it's impossible to predict the long term, but is it within the realm of reasonable possibility for the next few decades?
I would be more interested in a potential Stanford jump over Yale at this point, but that's possible too. the daylight between Y and S is significantly less than between S and Chi/HLS
Other way around in terms of "daylight". These schools are basically maxed on the rankings criteria which have ceilings (medians, reputation score out of 5, bar passage rates, employment rates) and so the main thing left for them to compete on is expenditures per student, where the sky's the limit.

Yale outspends everybody by such a wide margin that they are basically unassailable unless Stanford or Chicago can get a billionaire alumnus to really make it rain, or Harvard cuts its class size to 250 (which would probably also require a dump truck of money).
On the topic of billionaire alumnus, I think part of Chicago's relative rise has to have at least something to do with David Rubenstein. There is less of a "ceiling" on things like medians, when you have extra millions of dollars to buy those people (and a small class size where those people can really matter).

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by Rule23andMe » Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:58 pm

New_Englander wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:02 pm
Should this have any bearing in my choosing NYU vs Columbia?
All else being equal, sure, definitely valid to consider the rankings divergence.
Looking at your prior posts though, agree with the others who said the gap (to the extent there is one) or extra peace of mind probably still isn't worth $50k if you're still just planning to go into biglaw. To me it wouldn't be anyway

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by TheNavigator » Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:20 pm

Rule23andMe wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:58 pm
New_Englander wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:02 pm
Should this have any bearing in my choosing NYU vs Columbia?
All else being equal, sure, definitely valid to consider the rankings divergence.
Looking at your prior posts though, agree with the others who said the gap (to the extent there is one) or extra peace of mind probably still isn't worth $50k if you're still just planning to go into biglaw. To me it wouldn't be anyway
Thanks, that’s what I’m thinking currently. Although I’m hoping for DC international trade or international arbitration, or NY international arbitration so maybe the ranking difference may be more important in these fields. (Although NYU seems very well represented in NYC international arbitration groups)

nixy

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by nixy » Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 pm

New_Englander wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:02 pm
Should this have any bearing in my choosing NYU vs Columbia?
No. One year of rankings in a US magazine isn’t going to make any difference at all.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by DworkinLikeMyDaddy » Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:31 pm

HLS's grading system still seems like something of a differentiator though -- significant contingent of students who cruise through picking up Ps and end up at firms that otherwise tend to look higher in the class and there are others who leverage average grades + previous work experience + the H name into more unique roles.

A similar phenomenon may exist at CCN for all I know, but at least at Chi seems like everyone shares in the misery (and RIGOR) of the numeric grading system.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by mab9ve » Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:46 am

No one talks about the fact that Columbia has approximately 15% of int’l JD students who can’t clerk. This, coupled with the fact that most eligible Columbia grads want to stay in New York (and not move to middle America for a random federal clerkship) and that doing transactional work is hugely popular among the student body, are factors that 0Ls should take into account when seeing these “awesome” clerkship numbers that Chicago or UVA have (both of which have 0 or very few int’l JD students).

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by praktischevernunft » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:47 pm

mab9ve wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:46 am
No one talks about the fact that Columbia has approximately 15% of int’l JD students who can’t clerk. This, coupled with the fact that most eligible Columbia grads want to stay in New York (and not move to middle America for a random federal clerkship) and that doing transactional work is hugely popular among the student body, are factors that 0Ls should take into account when seeing these “awesome” clerkship numbers that Chicago or UVA have (both of which have 0 or very few int’l JD students).
I think UChicago intentionally admits very ver few international students here. They even told a friend of mine in his interview that they don't understand why International students do a JD in the US and that they admit very few international students. On another occasion (an admission fair) they told another friend of mine that she might want to consider their LLM program even though she received her undergraduate education in the US and were subsequently ineligible for any LLM admission, which requires an undergraduate law degree. Both of them ended up at brilliant law schools. Personally I think this is blatantly discriminatory practice. They just want to boost their clerkship rate. This is irritating. Even though international students cannot clerk or go to the government, they can still be good lawyers practicing US laws in and outside the US. HLS, CLS, NYU, on the other hand, admit a significant number of International students who are equally able to succeed in law school and land at good firm jobs.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by nealric » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:17 pm

tlsguy2020 wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:24 pm
Has there ever been a meaningful difference between attending Harvard and Columbia for the majority of students that get just graduate and get jobs at New York biglaw firms? I understand there’s a difference for the tippy-top feeder clerk types. Not making a statement, genuinely asking – I didn’t attend either and don’t work in New York. For what it’s worth, I’m not sure that my West Coast firm really distinguishes between the two.
Going up (or down) the prestige ladder has always been an odds game. There's not much meaningful difference between Harvard and schools like Duke or Penn for the majority of students either. In both cases, the median student is probably going to end up in NYC biglaw. But, you are somewhat more likely to experience an OCI strike out or end up a tier below in the firm pecking order going to Duke over Harvard.

In the margins, it can make an enormous difference. You are quite a bit more likely to end up a SCOTUS justice going to Harvard over Columbia (or Duke), but of course SCOTUS justices are extreme outliers in the legal profession and not something anybody could rationally aspire to in any direct way. Still, you'll probably see some statistically meaningful bump between very good schools and HYS in the very most senior positions in various organizations. But statistically meaningful is very different from being meaningful to any specific student.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by toast and bananas » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:22 pm


mab9ve

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by mab9ve » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:41 pm

praktischevernunft wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:47 pm
mab9ve wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:46 am
No one talks about the fact that Columbia has approximately 15% of int’l JD students who can’t clerk. This, coupled with the fact that most eligible Columbia grads want to stay in New York (and not move to middle America for a random federal clerkship) and that doing transactional work is hugely popular among the student body, are factors that 0Ls should take into account when seeing these “awesome” clerkship numbers that Chicago or UVA have (both of which have 0 or very few int’l JD students).
I think UChicago intentionally admits very ver few international students here. They even told a friend of mine in his interview that they don't understand why International students do a JD in the US and that they admit very few international students. On another occasion (an admission fair) they told another friend of mine that she might want to consider their LLM program even though she received her undergraduate education in the US and were subsequently ineligible for any LLM admission, which requires an undergraduate law degree. Both of them ended up at brilliant law schools. Personally I think this is blatantly discriminatory practice. They just want to boost their clerkship rate. This is irritating. Even though international students cannot clerk or go to the government, they can still be good lawyers practicing US laws in and outside the US. HLS, CLS, NYU, on the other hand, admit a significant number of International students who are equally able to succeed in law school and land at good firm jobs.
This 100%! Which is why I respect law schools that take a “gamble” on international JD students such as Harvard, Columbia, Cornell, and Georgetown. I say “gamble” because these students are pretty much precluded from clerkships and tend to have a harder time landing jobs. Chicago and UVa are risk-averse and very ranking conscious (which has paid off).

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by talons2250 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:48 pm

Do we even know that clerkship placement rate is taken into account for the USNWR rankings at all?

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:35 pm

toast and bananas wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:22 pm
USNWR big on UChicago this year

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... a-rankings
Booth has been #1 before and honestly it's pretty much musical chairs for the M7 this decade. There's not a meaningful difference between #1 and #5 the way there (sorta) is for law school.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by Access » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:57 pm

talons2250 wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:48 pm
Do we even know that clerkship placement rate is taken into account for the USNWR rankings at all?
Not directly but 25% is "peer assessment" from other academics, and 15% is lawyers and judges (how much is judges I don't know). Both of those factors are going to be influenced a lot by clerkships.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by gabawat » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:34 pm

https://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/lei ... ality.html

Thoughts? Based on this, Chicago's coming above Harvard seems on point.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:17 am

gabawat wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:34 pm
https://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/lei ... ality.html

Thoughts? Based on this, Chicago's coming above Harvard seems on point.
Brian Leiter was calling this back in like 2004 (making the important point that USNWR's formula favors smaller schools which spend more per capita (mainly to hate on Stanford)) so his finally being right is like an economist predicting 19 of the last 2 recessions.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:03 pm

DworkinLikeMyDaddy wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:31 pm
HLS's grading system still seems like something of a differentiator though -- significant contingent of students who cruise through picking up Ps and end up at firms that otherwise tend to look higher in the class and there are others who leverage average grades + previous work experience + the H name into more unique roles.

A similar phenomenon may exist at CCN for all I know, but at least at Chi seems like everyone shares in the misery (and RIGOR) of the numeric grading system.
Correct. Far more prestigious name, more lenient grading system, better location, and more pleasant culture. HLS will continue to win the cross-admit battle, even as Chicago continues to be the most generous with merit aid of any top law school.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by talons2250 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:20 pm

Chicago currently has the second-lowest yield of any T14 school: https://7sage.com/top-law-school-admissions/. More than 75% of its admits don't attend. Schools of comparable selectivity have far higher yields. Clearly there is some issue with how it's perceived. Northeast bias, reputation for being conservative, and the numbers grading system could be factors.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:44 pm

talons2250 wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:20 pm
Chicago currently has the second-lowest yield of any T14 school: https://7sage.com/top-law-school-admissions/. More than 75% of its admits don't attend. Schools of comparable selectivity have far higher yields. Clearly there is some issue with how it's perceived. Northeast bias, reputation for being conservative, and the numbers grading system could be factors.
I don't think it's a scarlet letter that they get butchered on cross-admits with HYS or T14 scholarships. That just confirms they are on the cusp of being a legitimate Yale alternative like HLS and SLS, but not quite there yet. Stanford's yield is lowish for a similar reason. Harvard does better on yield by admitting a much larger group of people, many of whom won't have an alternative among Y/S or even the T6.

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by toast and bananas » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:50 pm

Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:03 pm
DworkinLikeMyDaddy wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:31 pm
HLS's grading system still seems like something of a differentiator though -- significant contingent of students who cruise through picking up Ps and end up at firms that otherwise tend to look higher in the class and there are others who leverage average grades + previous work experience + the H name into more unique roles.

A similar phenomenon may exist at CCN for all I know, but at least at Chi seems like everyone shares in the misery (and RIGOR) of the numeric grading system.
Correct. Far more prestigious name, more lenient grading system, better location, and more pleasant culture. HLS will continue to win the cross-admit battle, even as Chicago continues to be the most generous with merit aid of any top law school.
I will only disagree with the bolded. Chicago >>>> Cambridge IMO

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Re: Harvard is Out. Chicago is In. YSC

Post by Res Ipsa Loquitter » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:16 pm

toast and bananas wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:50 pm
Res Ipsa Loquitter wrote:
Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:03 pm
DworkinLikeMyDaddy wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:31 pm
HLS's grading system still seems like something of a differentiator though -- significant contingent of students who cruise through picking up Ps and end up at firms that otherwise tend to look higher in the class and there are others who leverage average grades + previous work experience + the H name into more unique roles.

A similar phenomenon may exist at CCN for all I know, but at least at Chi seems like everyone shares in the misery (and RIGOR) of the numeric grading system.
Correct. Far more prestigious name, more lenient grading system, better location, and more pleasant culture. HLS will continue to win the cross-admit battle, even as Chicago continues to be the most generous with merit aid of any top law school.
I will only disagree with the bolded. Chicago >>>> Cambridge IMO
Dollar for dollar, I'd rather live in Lincoln Park, River North or Lakeview East than Cambridge. Problem for me is uChicago is in Hyde Park, 7+ miles away from the fun.

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